The Anatomy of Grief: Katie Rizzo on Healing Through Science and Storytelling

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Living the Dream Kings with Curve Bomb. If you believe, you can achieve. Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curve Ball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today's guest is someone who beautifully bridges science with storytelling. Katie Rizzo is an educator, writer, and author whose work explores the deeply human experience between love, grief, and resilience. Katie has over 15 years of experience as an anatomy and biology teacher, and she has advanced degrees from Yale and the University of Colorado's School of Medicine. Katie brings a rare perspective because her work explores the emotional depth and scientific understanding. So we're going to be talking to Katie about her work. Her work has appeared in literary journals as well as prestigious anthology. So we're going to be talking to her about everything that she's up to and gonna be up to. So Katie, thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Oh no, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Okay, well, um, I am a Gen Xer who uh was living a pretty harmonious life. I had three boys, they all were out of the house house. I was teaching, I had a a really amazing career, and our oldest son really kind of got hit with um an a pretty good addiction. And he was addicted to pills. Uh it it kind of sent shockwaves throughout my whole family. And about two years ago, almost two years ago, he overdosed, which uh he was 25, which it's really hard to get your head around that. I mean, it it was pretty heartbreaking. Uh, after that happened, I found that my grief really mirrored the my how I felt when I was going through pregnancy. And I'm happy to talk about that in more depth. But um I started journaling about it and I wrote a book about it. I've done a bunch of um self-help groups, uh trying to get in, you know, figure out how to live with this this new this new world I'm in.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yeah, your book, The Trimesters of Grief. So talk about that. Uh, what what inspired that title? Because that's a powerful title, and you know how that represents your journey, and you know, tell us about the book.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Yeah, well, when we first found out that he had was gone, um I found that I was sick to my stomach, I had I had no energy, I was sleeping all the time, I couldn't eat, and those were all feelings that I had when I was in my first trimester pregnancy with all three of my boys, and it kind of felt like a um a painfully sick, cruel joke, right? And after that, um, I got to a place where I could kind of bear it, and still at the same time, uh, I was uh it was like a state where everybody else was going on with their lives, and I just I was looking out from the outside, and I I I couldn't believe it was my life, and I that really reminded me of the second trimester. In what I'm calling my third trimester is when I kind of got out of the feeling of hiding and being inside, and I really wanted to tell everyone about this big, beautiful life that was lost. I started writing poetry, which I'd never done before. I started posting it on the internet, which is extremely crazy. And I just, it was like I was showing. I I wanted everyone to know if you met me in the grocery store and said, How's your day going? I'd say, you know, not good. I lost my son. I I felt like this need to let everyone see my grief. Since then, I read Nick Cave with which is a he's a writer. I don't know if you know of him, he is a writer and a musician, and he lost two sons. And he talks about how he asked grief to not live inside of his body, but to kind of sit next to him. And so I did that. I decided that was kind of a call to delivery, and I have asked my grief not to kind of press itself against my face so much. And uh I let I I visualize it sitting next to me. Um, it kind of sounds crazy, but it it actually works. It's kind of like a meditation process where you look at something, a really difficult emotion, and instead of trying to press it down or ignore it or really lean too much into it, you just ask it to sit next to you. You can hold its hand. I could picture my grief as a little orange-haired orangutan who sometimes he's you know wild and needs a lot of attention, and other times he can just kind of be left alone. Um yesterday it was on uh public transportation. I'm in New Orleans, and I was going from the airport to the French quarter, and I was feeling like I was out of my element, just like, why am I doing this? Why am I traveling? I have this lost son. Like I just I felt this huge wave of grief and that he would never be able to experience New Orleans and why was I experiencing it, not him? And I just asked that grief to just sit down and hold my hand, and I just tried to breathe through it and picture it as if it was its own entity, which I kind of think it is, because I feel like grief is it's not love that that has nowhere to go, but it's something that Nicholas, my son, and I created together. So that's why the title of the book is The Trimesters of Grief, and um it's part memoir and part prescriptive elements on kind of how I've been trying to get through this. And I feel like I'm not the first mom in the world to lose a kid, and I I wish I would be the last. Um, I hope it reaches people and I hope it touches people who are struggling with addiction and helps them to figure out some way out of that mess. And yeah, so that's a little bit about the title.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

Well, how does your strong background in science and medicine affect the way that you process greed?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

That's interesting. So I understand that my I understand a little bit about the neurobiology of my brain, that I have all this wiring and it's not just expectations, but it's that my brain is having a hard time understanding death, in so much as you know, sometimes I'll turn and look at my phone and try to um see if he's called or texted, even though it's been so long. And I understand that that's you know, uh neurons in my brain, and those pathways have been reinforced over many years. And so it's kind of hard to have them not die out, but just understand what's hap, what's really going on, and that it isn't that um I don't it it's not like an amputation, you know how people who have lost a limb, they'll have um phantom pain. I think it's really easy for people who've lost their person to have phantom pain. I try a to understand, you know, logically he isn't here, but what are some ways that I can kind of connect to him rather than kind of wallow in just how sad it is? And some of the ways that I found to connect to him are um in writing. So I've been writing a lot of poetry and um to and with him, um exercising because I know that exercise helps with um mood-boosting neurotransmitters. I know that humans are wired for connection, and I don't think I believe that until this happened. And I started trying to see my son and other people and see opportunities um as ways for me to kind of see him in glimmers of of people. Today I was at a um at a jazz fest, and there was this brilliant clarinetist, and as she played, she just played with so much heart and wisdom. Her name's Doreen's Jazz, and I'm telling you, I felt like Mickles had given me her as a gift. So that's a little bit about my science background, and also in my poetry, a lot of times I will try to look at the natural world and how the natural world deals with cycles of life and death and kind of apply them to my life because I know I'm not special, I am just as human as everyone else is, and uh lots of humans lose lose people, and lots of other animals lose their families, and I guess I've been looking to other systems to try to figure out what's the best way to live with this.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Well, was there a specific moment, a turning point that led you to to write this memoir?

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Um, that's such a cute question. I love that. So, yeah, I was at a grief group, and there was a woman. I mean, grief groups are very depressing, obviously. And it was a grief group for parents who've lost a child. It could have been to anything. And so we were all sitting around, and everybody there just looked so etched in pain, and there were some people in there who had been there for 14 years, so it's a long time, and not that I not that I don't want to still have this longing and love for him, but to be in that depth of pain, I just did not want that, and I do not want that. And I we were sitting there, and this woman who seemed really normal, she started slurring her words, and then pretty soon she kind of slumped in her chair and she fell over, and I recognized that behavior because of my own son. He um he was addicted to pain pills and downers, and that is how he would act sometimes. He never passed out in front of me, but he did get the kind of droopy eye and slurred speech, and so in any case, um I wrote this wanting to reach out to people who are maybe don't have don't have as much of support as I've had and who are a little lost because I I don't feel like there's a lot of examples in our world that were of moms who have survived child loss. I mean, there are a few, but we need their voices. That's what I think I want to say is we need, and I think that there's a lot of shame in having a child of an addict, a child who has addiction or who yeah, or a child who um you lost to suicide. And I think that not that I want to normalize that because I don't want that to be quote normal, but I also I I want moms to know that they don't have to just go hide somewhere and kind of drowned their sorrows. Have you had significant loss?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Uh yeah, I I lost my grandpa at uh age 15 to cancer and that was uh real hard on me.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Yeah, yeah. You were 15. That's it's pretty young. I'm sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Appreciate it. Well, speaking of that, I I know that uh writing about grief can be incredibly vulnerable. So talk about what what was the most difficult part of putting your story on paper.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Well, uh I guess I there's this group that I'm a part of. It's called Lit, Love in the Trenches. It's out of um the Baltimore area. It's for people who've lost their kids to addiction specifically. And I'm in a group where uh we meet once a month and we write. And I found that you in that group, you can be one. You if you're if you're if you come to it with a lot of ego or a lot of pretense, or you're trying to pretend to be something you're not, they can see right through you. I mean, this is a bunch of of parents who have lost their kid and they and they know what's going on. And being with them, I realize that it's kind of beautiful to be vulnerable, and it's kind of beautiful to shed my self-esteem and all the fake things, and just be real, and and being real and saying, you know, I lost my kid to addiction, I have a lot of guilt, I have a lot of regrets, but it's also very freeing instead of hiding that, and it's freeing. I don't know if you are if you know anybody who has addiction, but there's so much shame in it. And I know my son had a tremendous amount of shame, not just from doing the the pills or taking the pills, but also for the stealing and the lying and just the chaos that comes with with addiction. And so I feel like my whole family has been kind of in this tornado of shame, and I I'm not I wasn't really sure what was real, but I do know now what is real is is my love for him, my love for my other kids, and that other people in this world have a lot of pain as well, and that's that's what I want to be around. I don't I I I I think it's a beautiful place to be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Well, I know you've taught anatomy and biology for years, so did your understanding of the human body change after experiencing such a deep personal loss?

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Oh, that's that's a great question. Um it has a lot, and I used to be a really scientific person and very logical, and I think I'm a lot less logical and a lot less scientific. Um, the other day we had a bald eagle up here in our backyard in Arizona, and we don't get bald eagles hardly ever, especially in our backyard. But it sat there for two hours or maybe even longer, and my husband and I took some pictures of it and we sat with it, and that defies science, right? That like, why would a bald eagle want to visit with us for so long? But it did. So that's really challenged me, and I for sure. There is a researcher, uh, Mr. Romero's at BU in Boston University, and he looks at memory, and he can give mice uh a memory, an actual memory, by using an implanted electrode, and he can take away a memory. And that's got me. I don't think I would have been as interested in that if I hadn't have lost Nicholas. It has me really curious about the nature of memory, and as much as I want a new memory with Nicholas, if I can just be open to the fact that there are mice out there who have pretend memories. Um and maybe I can be open to the the fact that maybe there is such a thing as like woo-woo bald eagles visit you and it's really your your dead son trying to come back and tell you he still loves you. So I guess it it really has affected my science brain.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Well, how do you balance honoring your personal story while making it relatable for other people who have gone through their own grief?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Gosh, that's such a good question. Um there's this book, it's called Tattoos on the Heart. Have you read it? Well, the book it's by a a priest who he goes to LA and he works with kids who are in rival gangs.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

No, I haven't heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Okay, it's beautiful. It's it's really incredible. Um and I don't know, I feel like the thread of humanity from his well, I just read it on the yesterday, a lot of it. And I the thread of humanity, just how beautiful it is to see somebody and to witness their pain and love somebody. I don't know how many um kids he saved, but it was probably a lot, and he also didn't save a lot, and he describes their funerals, which is just horrific. But hopefully I can see other people and see their humanity. I mean, there are some parents who have lost more than one kid, um, and I I just I hope that how I meet people in their grief is just in being earnest because um we're all humans trying to have a human experience. And uh some people have been luckier than others, and um I don't think yeah, I think it's our I think it's our job to make life easier on other people. And I don't think bad things happen to bad people. I think sometimes bad things just happen.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

We'll talk about how your poetry writing differs from your memoir writing.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Your sweet. Uh well, my poetry writing is I never studied poetry. I don't have an M. Um, since I started writing poetry, I've started reading about different types of poetry and how to write it, which has been interesting. But I feel like it's almost, I don't know, are you familiar with automatic writing?

SPEAKER_00 23:36

No, I've never heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Okay, automatic writing, I think it's an AAA thing in Alcoholics Anonymous Anonymous thing, where they, but I could be wrong, but I think in AA sometimes they'll ask people to just write without thinking, like write to your higher power, have your higher power write back to without thinking. Um, and so and I think automatic writing has also come into the mainstream about um kind of writing to your dead one, your dead loved one. So I feel like this didn't start off being automatic writing, and it just, but it it has a a flavor of that to it. A lot of times I'll I I wake up almost every morning and I will think about you know, something I saw in nature that day, like a few days ago, I saw a wolf or a coyote, not a wolf. It would have been great if it was a wolf, but I saw a coyote and then just how that applied to Nicholas, to my other boys, or like the life cycle of the coyote, and like what lessons I could learn from it, and then I just try to put that into a poem because I feel like my job right now is to be a loving witness of the world. So that's a little bit about my poetry, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Well, what misconceptions do you think people have about grief that your book challenges?

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Can you think of a misconception that you came against in grief, or is am I putting you on the spot?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Well, I guess if I had to be on the spot, I would say, you know, that uh just get over it, or you know, say something like that, suck it up, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Yeah. And did you know right away that that was just not something that you could ever do?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

No, I tried.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Oh, did you? Okay. I don't, yeah, that's definitely a misconception. I have heard and I feel lots of times. People will say, like, when are you gonna stop writing poetry? Or I don't know. I feel like in in our culture, we just want everybody to be their best selves, optimize your best selves, yeah, um, go live your best life. But what if you're living your best life isn't ignoring all that stuff, but actually kind of leaning into it. I guess that's what I think. Um, since Nicholas pressed, I've been doing a lot of meditating because they say it's good for you, and um I have that calm app, and I'll I probably spend 20 minutes a day at meditating with that. And something that's really been good for me to realize is that my emotions are not gonna swallow me up, I'm not gonna go crazy, they're big and scary, but so is my love. Like it's it's delicious to feel like my love for him or remember something beautiful that he said, or uh something that he and his brothers did, because I don't want to forget those.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Well, for someone currently navigating loss, what do you hope they take away from your work?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Very sweet. Um I hope they take away that there's a lot of shame, and there's a lot of guilt, especially in the beginning of grief. And I haven't met a parent who didn't come against a ton of shame and guilt. Even parents who lost their kids to a cancer felt a lot of guilt and shame, and I think that's just normal. So I hope they take that away. And I also hope they find a way to live with it, and that there are support groups out there, and there are other parents out there, they're not alone, that there are gonna be days that are bitter and terrible, but also there are gonna be some days where they can just look at the beauty of the world so differently. I think the lows are lower, but I think the highs are higher. I keep thinking that like I'm since my son left, that I'm liminal, meaning liminal is like half on earth and half not. And the reason being it just doesn't feel real anymore. And I think that for people who've lost somebody that's been that dramatic, that I hope they don't give up. And I hope that they don't try to numb with alcohol or drugs, because I watched what that did to my son, and he got really hooked on um opioids and benzodiazepines, and he got to a place where I don't think he, no matter how hard he tried, I don't think he could get off. And our culture is one where we say, you know, you can do that, you can do this, you know, it's it's um, you gotta pull yourself out of this, use your willpower. And I don't know that addiction is something that can be cured by willpower. So I hope people read it and understand that this beast of addiction is gonna need all your tools and all the people around you. Um, I think from my reading of relapse rates on opioids are really high. 70 to 90 percent of people who go into rehab for opioids uh relapse. And uh that's that's unforgivably high. I think AA has the best chance at getting people sober, but you know, you have to want it, and I don't know how we get our people to want it, but it isn't by shame and it isn't by society judging. Uh, there are a lot of people out there in jail and who are homeless who are addicted, and I hope that anybody who reads my book looks at them with a a little bit more compassion. I've seen the statistics on people who are using drugs in jail, and it I think it's over 90%. And I think we all know that for the homeless population, a lot of them are on drugs as well. So drugs are just it's it's a it's a terrible disease, drug addiction, and our society really uses judgment and shame rather than trying to figure out how do we help these human beings get better.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Well, how do you feel like writing this book has changed you, not just as an author, but as a person?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

It's it's increased my desire to reach out to people who are hurting. Um I also I mean right now I'm in New Orleans and there are a ton of people drinking and you know, um, they look like there's there's a big homeless population. And I don't know how to help people, but this book has really inspired me to want to do something more. Like, I don't in in the US there's so many people who have money and have aren't and aren't addicted, whether that's because they're genetically they don't have the the gene or they haven't had the somehow they haven't gotten enough of the pills, so they they're doing fine. And then we have this other lower class, like, oh, these are the addicts, and um, I want to do more. I'm I'm hoping to do more. So yeah. What about you with your podcast? How has it changed you?

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Well, I feel like it's given me a different perspective on various topics and taught me things I didn't know, and and it's just amazing talking to people like yourself, you know, and like wow, I can't wait till my listeners hear this story and uh see what kind of encouragement or how it can motivate or what somebody can learn from somebody else's story.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's I I hope that anybody who's listening who is struggling with addiction, I hope they hear that my son had so much shame and so much guilt because he was so embarrassed by the addiction. And we would say to him, you know, that's not you, that's your addiction when he stole. And I would give anything to have him back. And if somebody out there is hurting and feeling ashamed or embarrassed, just if you could just listen to me and know there's nothing to be ashamed about. This is just like diabetes, it's just like any other disease. And that addiction has got the death grips on you, and it's okay to get help, and it's okay to tell people like, hey, I have addiction. It doesn't mean I am a bad person because you are not a bad person. And we're all human and we all deserve love and understanding.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Well, tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Um, okay, well, I have two books coming out. Uh, one is called The Trimesters of Grief, and it is available for pre-order anywhere books are sold um in June 9th, and it's um being published by Kohler Books and Black Blackstone Audio is producing the audiobook. And then also my book of poetry, none of them are you, is coming out um November 1st. And those that you can buy anywhere books are sold to. You can find me at www.kdrizzo.com or on Instagram at katyriso 007. And I would love to connect with people.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

We'll close this out with some final thoughts. Maybe if there was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Sure. I would like to remind everyone, especially mothers out there, that I think we think that that if you're doing well in life, your your mom or your dad did something great. Like, I have a son who's at Columbia, and at uh freshman day they said, Parents, you did a great job. And I wanted to scream, I didn't, I if I did a great job here, what about with my son who didn't live, right? Like that your parents are humans, they do the best they can. And if they didn't love you enough or get what you need, um go get it. And I think it's time for us as a society to not put everything on moms and um and also to remember that addicts come from families that love them.com or Izzo.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

And please be sure to follow rate review, share this episode to as many people as possible, especially those who might be going through addiction or families who might be going through addiction. Also to keep up with all things living the dream, visit www.curveball337.com and share the website and the show to everybody you know. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening to the show. And Katie, thank you for all that you do, and thank you for being so brave to share your story, and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Well, thanks for letting me do this. This was lovely.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curvebumber337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.