Beyond Bestsellers: Robbie Samuels' Blueprint for Author Revenue and Opportunity

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with Curveball. If you believe, you can achieve.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today's guest is someone who is on a mission to change how authors define success. Robbie Samuels wants authors to be able to generate books that create revenue, opportunity, and credibility. While most authors are authors, you know, are chasing bestseller badges and vanity messages. Robbie knows the game and he wants to show them what works. Robbie is a number one best-selling author with four books, and he has 900 Amazon reviews and number one rankings across 37 categories worldwide. So we're going to be talking to Robbie about what actually works for authors and entrepreneurs out there. So, Robbie, thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Thank you, Curtis, for that kind introduction. Nice to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Glad to have you. Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Well, I'm a multi-passionate entrepreneur and I'm known for a few different things. What led me to being a book launch strategist is that I wrote a book in 2017 because I'm a professional speaker and professional speakers need to have a book. And um, I was getting ready to hand the book off to my editor, and I realized it was a good book and that it was actually going to be published, and I wanted people to read it. It was like a realization that I didn't just want to publish the book. I wanted to get it into the hands of the people who needed it most. So I delayed the publication timing and I pulled together a launch team and I aimed for a hundred plus reviews and I got them and I did everything wrong and in the most difficult ways possible. And I hosted a uh masterclass in order to share with my launch team what I had done as a thank you. And so people started to know me for that service, but I didn't want to be known for that at first. I was trying to become known as a networking expert for associations and conferences. Pandemic happens, life gets interrupted by for everybody. I subsequently published two books, and each of those books has 200 plus reviews during the launch. And again, I host a masterclass to share how I do it. And I started looking around in 2023 for a new revenue stream because I had gotten really deep into using Zoom and showing people how to leverage Zoom, but that was starting to kind of fade a bit. And again and again, authors and entrepreneurs were reaching out to me about my book launch strategies. So I published a book on that topic, built a referral network, host events, created community, kindled flash sales. It's been a wild ride. So now uh I'm a business strategist, book launch strategist, Zoom producer, uh professional speaker, host a podcast for over 500 episodes, but it's really about relationships and strategy.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Where you achieved mass massive bestseller success, what helped you realize that those metrics don't actually work?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

That nothing in my bank account changed. That if anything, people are sold on the idea of hitting number one, which I have done, as you said, 37 times across four different countries and four different books. Um it's really easy to do once you know how it works. You can sell as little as two dozen books in in a lot of categories, not all. Um, I see people who are promising you'll become an international best-selling author. And what they're doing is getting you to hit number one in Canada for one category and in the US for one category. And then they're giving you something to put on your cover that says you're international bestseller. Um it's just so phony. And people kind of know that now. They're starting to become aware of it. And I don't think it helps you. If you wrote a book related to your business, that metric alone won't matter. Now, if you happen to hit number one as a byproduct of a strategic reviews-focused launch where you're engaging in conversations with your likely prospects and your referral partners in an effort to get them to write you Amazon reviews, then they're going to be asked to buy the book as they leave their review. And again, there's a good chance that just by doing that coordinated effort, you will hit number one. So it is a worthwhile like milestone along the way to other success, but it's not worthwhile, in my opinion, as the goal of the launch as a standalone effort. And um, I just I think having the clients that I've worked with uh re-engage their network and get new leads or referrals, or just even having a client hire them a second time or refer them to somebody else who hires them, man, that's money in the bank account. Like that's that's reach, that's impact, and that's revenue. And that's what we really want to have.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Talk about the biggest misconception authors have about a successful book launch.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

They hit publish and they think everyone's gonna come running over to find it. There are thousands of books published, you know, daily, not hourly, around the world. Uh, there's so many books in the world. And now AI and people telling you you can write a book in a weekend or seven prompts to write a book in an hour. There's a lot of really um crappy books being put out. So if you're again, if the whole point of the book was to guide people towards the business you have as a speaker, coach, consultant, then the book should create that. It should have the kind of content strategically that answers the kinds of questions your prospects have. And there's a difference between a problem that you know they have and a problem they are aware of and they're willing to talk about. So you need to make sure that the promise of the book initially pulls them in by answering the questions that they are thinking about, but then it opens their awareness to the bigger problem. And now you're gonna have people reaching out to have conversations with you. And it doesn't even have to always be that they hire you. Like I have had lots of people use my book, Launch Your Book, An Entrepreneur's Guide to Reviews That Drive Revenue, which is the fourth book I wrote, which is on this topic. They've gotten great results, and they are the first to tell you it's a lot of work. And I had a great testimonial someone did on video, basically saying I got 78 reviews following Robbie's process, and next time I'm definitely gonna hire him. That was a lot to do. And there's other things that they author was like, I could have been doing other things in my time, but I had to be managing all of these moving parts. That's what Robbie's team does. Um, so I just think pub merely writing and publishing a book is not enough. And particularly as a professional speaker where you're being considered with other professional speakers who probably already have books. So, you know, what differentiates you then if you both have a book? Well, if if they have eight reviews uh and you have 80 written reviews, like that could be the differentiator that gets you selected to be on stage. Or if someone's considering hiring you as a coach, like how do they even learn about you? Well, they put some keywords into the Amazon search page and and your book came up, and then they read your book, and now they're thinking about working with you because you get them. So the book can do so much more as a business development tool as opposed to just being a product that gathers physical and digital dust.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Where you emphasize getting 50 plus Amazon reviews. Talk about why that number is so important and what that unlocks.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Well, it's not like a magic thing. It's more that um most books don't even have 20 written reviews. And there's a difference between the ratings, the one through five star ratings, and the actual um time when people take the time to actually write something. And it's the written reviews that I keep track of because the algorithm cares about that. The quantity of reviews, the quality of the reviews, the recency of reviews, and the percentage of verified purchase reviews, that all factors into how your book shows up or where your book shows up on the search results page. Aiming for 50 reviews requires having a process in place. And because you have that process in place, uh, you're gonna be more strategic and thoughtful about who you invite to be on your launch team, how you follow up with them. What most authors do, if they think about getting reviews, they do one of two things. One is they hire this out, they hear about some company that says, give me money and I will blast your book to a bunch of people on my email list who said they will write reviews. It doesn't really help you. Even if they write reviews, uh, they're not building you a pipeline. Um, these people are being motivated by money, and it's actually against Amazon's rules to do that. Uh, and if they're writing reviews for all kinds of genres, it's not gonna help the Amazon algorithm know who to refer or recommend your book to. Um, the other way they do it is um they get friends and family, which also doesn't work, same thing, same problems there. Or they ask their friends, uh, their clients and prospects once. They say, Hey, hey, you know, Curtis, you join my launch team? And then you're like, Yeah, yeah. Then you're like, you know, life gets busy, so you don't get to it right away. And maybe if you're lucky, one out of 10 people that you ask to write your review will do it if you just say, Hey, can you do this thing? As it is, uh, more than 90% of people check reviews before making a purchase, but so few of us regularly write reviews. So making the effort to actually help people follow through, it might only be a third to half of the people who join your launch team that do write the review. Um, but even the people who don't are now in conversation with you. And if it's the right people, the prospects and referral partners, people who directly benefit from the book or would know those people, um, then as a business owner, you are serving your business, helping get the message out as far as you can. 50 just is sort of a metric to shoot for because uh it will put you far ahead than most people. Uh, and then once you've done that, you you're not far from getting 100. Like once you've got that system set up, it's just a question of how many people you invited into the process. And at around 100, Amazon does do some things. It's a little unclear, but like my book's been recommended via email as a like book you might want to check out or been highlighted on certain pages, not ways that you can pay. It's not these are not sponsored, um, but there's a couple of spots where Amazon definitely picks books based on um different criteria. There's a popularity ranking, which is different than a sales ranking. And um, I think you know, by getting these reviews, it helps bump your book up on that. And that's how they pick a book to to feature. And uh, and that's not bad. That's great. That's like this eyeballs, people seeing what you're doing and learning about you um just by virtue of you doing a good job spreading the word yourself.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Well, can you break down what a launch team is and and why authors should consider building one since you you know you've been talking about it?

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Yeah, launch teams um are ideally made up of two types of people, or a majority are two types of people. People who would directly benefit from this book, um, who I might call likely prospects, people who who would be reading your material and be like, oh yeah, that's great. I love that. I totally need this. Or people who might know those people who I might call also referral partners. So they're thinking, you know, oh hey, like I don't need this service myself, but I know those people, or I have a membership community and my members need this, or I run an association and my association members need this, or I'm working in HR and my employees need this. So it's great to get those people to know about it because they're the ones who might have access to opportunities to be on a stage or on a podcast or to be booked to speak. Uh the other group of people you want to think of inviting are sort of general supporters. I would put fellow authors in that category, people who may not directly be interested in your topic, but they kind of get the importance of writing reviews. But if you over-index on the general supporters and you have two-thirds of your list being that, then you're not really building a pipeline from the book back to the business. So you make a list of people that you think would be interested based on their interests and their connection to you, and you invite them. And then once they're invited, there's a sequence of emails that you send that are hyper-personalized to them and what actions they have or have not taken. Uh, all with the goal of 50 plus reviews, but the real purpose is to be in a conversation with these people over the course of the launch.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Talk about some common mistakes entrepreneurs make when trying to turn their book into a revenge revenue generating asset.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Well, I will I'm gonna spin this and tell you a cool thing that a client of mine did today. I have um a client who launched their book yesterday, and today was a launch party, and he created some bonus content, and this is something that most people forget to do. He has bonus content to um have a self-guided book club. So a company buys his book for all the members of their team, and then there are questions so the uh company can then you know have a conversation with a team. Or um, I've suggested the authors create um something that allows a leader to um take exercises from the book and do one a week for you know 12 weeks as part of a team meeting, um, or creating a checklist or a resource guide or a you know, taking pages from the book and turning them into a workbook that people can download. So anything you can create that does two things. It helps people actually use the material in the book, and if they're gonna, if they don't just buy it but use it, they're more likely to refer you and tell other people about it. But it also collects their email address and it means that um it means that they're gonna get more interest sort of directed back into the business, and then you can nurture those people into like what comes next. So I think even if you write a good book, um, it has to have an audience. So another thing people make a mistake about is writing a book and it's not really clear who it's for. I unfortunately had a meeting the other day with a prospect who um she's sort of retirement age. She uh has a lot of experience in a topic that she was passionate about writing a book about, and she paid a lot of money to a company to get the book written and to do marketing, and I'm talking like$30,000 or more. And I talked over for 12 minutes and it wasn't clear who her audience was. And she at one point said, Well, it's for people who like don't really um think a lot about this topic or are a little bit afraid of it. I want to explain it to them. And I was like, what would make them pick up your book if they're not thinking about it or they're afraid of it? Like I so we had to think about like who were the other people in that person's life that might be the better target. Like in her case, it was, you know, um financial advisors were sort of one of the examples. It sort of pains me. It really does that she had gotten that far into the process that she was, you know, they were formatting the book, she was getting ready to have it be published. And um, I don't think that book's gonna sell because she hasn't identified like who who are the who are the people who are gonna buy it and pass it along. So writing a book that doesn't have a clear audience is definitely a mistake to avoid and and one that um maybe is written for people who don't even know they have that problem. That's another thing to avoid. So I think this is culture to like just just go do it, just publish it, just put it out in the world and like let's slow down, let's have some strategic thought about this, and uh and make sure the book is something you want to talk about for five or ten years because it's the kind of thing that you know would really benefit you to keep talking about. But most people they move on. It's like a product they ship and then they're just they forget about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Well, if done right, how can a book generate media speaking or other business opportunities for people?

SPEAKER_02 16:41

So I have a client who actually had some real challenges with his launch. Um, in July of uh 25, his book was published on Amazon, and uh for whatever reason they weren't allowing the Kindle version to be published. They allowed the paperback, and he was able to get his uh ebook published on other sites through Ingram Spark, but he went around and round with Amazon, they just would not let him publish his Kindle. And the Kindle book version is what I use for the launch sequence because we can lower it to 99 cents, and that means it's a sell, and people can leave the review, and it's a verified purchase review. So he was really bummed and he reached out to me and we started working together in October of 25. And we decided to do a launch focusing on Barnes and Noble reviews, and as many complaints as I have about Amazon and sometimes it can be really difficult, and things happen that we don't have control over. I found Barnes and Noble to be so much harder to work with. So he got 34 reviews. Um, he had more people interested in leaving reviews that just didn't do it, or it required like a second opt-in step that people missed. At the same time, between October and November, December time frame, he got five new contracts. Those contracts did not come in in July, August, or September when the book existed and no one knew about it. It came in in October, November because of the people he was reaching out to in order to get reviews from his book. Three of the people were returning clients who had always already worked with him, and two were referred by someone on the launch team. So, you know, sure, we were aiming for 50 or more reviews. We did not meet that goal. There were some challenges. But that isn't the purpose, though. The purpose was to help him create a pipeline of revenue and signing five new contracts made all the difference for him. And that is what a strategic reviews focused launch can do for a business.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Well, from someone starting from scratch, what are the first three steps that they need to take before even writing a book?

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Well, I have a a small group program called the Author ROI Lab where we talk about that. Um I think if it is a book related to a business, it's making sure that there is an ROI return on investment for creating this. Um this is a different question than if you're writing a memoir. I mean, if you're writing a memoir or writing fiction, like that's a very different thing. But if you're writing a book that's specifically about your business, it's your topic, it's your expertise, then you want to be clear about the who it's for, who it's not for, um, what will be included and what won't be included. Stop trying to write the one book that has everything in the kitchen sink. Um, shorter books are better. So, you know, having a book of like 30,000, 35,000 words is great. And then you can have two or three books in the series, and people will buy all of them. Much better than trying to have like this, you know, 800-page book that no one wants to carry around and read. So getting clear on that, and then publishing pathways is this other question people always seem to want to start with. Um, I know that for me, before I started working on my first book, I went to probably like six different workshops at various conferences about publishing pathways, even though I hadn't written the book. It's almost a stalling technique. It's like I must understand the publishing process before I write a single word. I think that is a thing we could skip. We could trust that uh once we have gotten ideas out, we understand who the audience is, we'll be motivated to figure out a pathway forward. And the pathway forward is dependent on time versus money versus control with an overlay of how much do you want to learn about this world? Like if you don't want to learn about publishing, you might want to go in one direction. If you are open to like getting into the details, learning all those pieces, then you might go in a different direction. Um, but these are there are trade-offs. And so really sitting with that, and I would also say being around other authors helps because then you get ideas from them, um, which is why Bizbook PubHub has community connections, which is our uh free virtual networking events, because I think seeing what other people's success looks like gives you some ideas of what to aim for beyond just the bestseller status that everyone talks about. You're like, oh, I could be on podcasts, I could, you know, book some clients, I could create a, you know, create a guide for people to use as part of a book club discussion. Like these are things that in the process of writing the book, you're just so tired and you just don't, you're not as creative, maybe. Um, but if you look around, you get some really good ideas. So I think the first things I would do is to join an author community of entrepreneurial authors. Uh, and I would sit with a guy a guide, a coach, a mentor, um, somebody to talk through the strategy for the book, and then I would figure out what is my style of writing, and then just could approach it from there.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Well, you work with many authors. Talk about what separates the ones who succeed long term from the ones that don't don't.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Well, the authors I work with, I think, are ahead of the game by virtue of the fact that. They are approaching this with a long-term sense, which is really great. Um, I just hosted a podcast today where I had two authors on whose books were two and four months old. So they had just gone through my Kindle flash cell and one had 30 reviews, one had 40 reviews. They both had sold 250 books, which is incredible. Their books have been out just a few months, and 250 books in a year is exceptional for an independent author. Um, a hundred would be kind of expected. Um a lot of books sell three, you know, one for me, one for my mom, one for my sister, kind of thing, you know. So these two authors had read my book, uh launch her book, and they had followed some of those steps. And one of them worked with a publisher that I had been talking to about my concepts, and that publisher had already given her a lot of good advice. So I I'm super excited. I'm like, I'm an enthusiastic supporter of entrepreneurial authors, and I just want to educate them about like what is a vanity metric versus this kind of strategy that will help them get real results to their business. And so the ones that dive in and take time and and like slow down are the ones I think are gonna have better long-term success, not just launch success, but long-term success. Occasionally I do meet people who are who whose book is already out there and they're trying to help me help them figure out like what a relaunch would look like. And they didn't, they didn't really have a launch. So I think anyone who's short-sighted and just is like, okay, okay, I'm gonna just get this out in the world, they're not, I feel like they're missing opportunities, um, both short-term and long-term opportunities for doing that, even though I I totally understand the push to you know, to hold that book in your hand and to have this be a real thing. Um, but it doesn't serve you. Uh and so if I could have people just slow themselves down a little bit, that would be great.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

We'll kind of talk about BizBook Pub Hub and you know, talk about it uh for authors who don't know how that's gonna help them in ways that uh traditional publishing and coaching programs will.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

So Bizbook PubHub is um entrepreneurial uh resources. Um it's a it's an ecosystem for entrepreneurial authors. There is a curated directory of about two dozen experts who could support authors along their journey, writing, editing, publishing, launching, and marketing. Um each of them are willing to meet with you for half an hour. Uh a lot of them have a giveaway uh gift um as part of their profile. That's a really great resource. Um, you can see, you know, some of them do a lot of things. Some of them are like just I'm an editor or cover designer. So you can kind of pick and choose. Some some will serve you most of the way through. Um, and then we also have our uh free virtual networking events. One month it's for writers and authors, and the following month we have one for speakers. And honestly, the overlap between those two is almost 100% in the world that I occupy. So it's a way to get connect with professional speakers and fellow authors. Um, there's a blog we've just started in the last few months and uh Kindle Flash Sales. So the Kindle Flash Sales is a coordinated marketing effort where about 50 authors, 60 authors come together, lower our Kindle Price to 99 cents, and we all do cross promotion. Um, and of course, the podcast. I've got almost over 500 episodes out, BizBook PubHub. If you go to BizBookPubHub.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can check that out. People are so generous. These authors get on these author panels and they share so much of what has gone well and what hasn't, and what they learned, what they would have done differently, and what they're gonna do for their second book. Uh, it's really a lot of learning uh that happens on those calls. And I feel like it's part of my my attempt to guide people to best practices that would serve them. I don't believe that there's like a single way to do things. I just think having a clear understanding of where we're trying to go and understanding the strategies that might get us there will help us make better choices. Um, and then of course, at that same link you'll learn about me, and I'm happy to always book a call with people. Uh, I have a link called booklaunchbrainstorm.com. I'll meet with someone who's thinking about writing a book, already has a book, anywhere in between, as long as the book is related to some kind of business, speaking, coaching, consulting, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Well, talk to the listeners about the podcast, tell them what they can expect when they listen to it and where they can hear it.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

That's awesome. Yeah, it's wherever you listen to podcasts, you can tune into BizBook PubHub. And um, it alternates. We have um these author panels of two or three authors. Those authors are part of our Kindle Flash sales, which is how they they uh get invited to be on the um the panels. Um the topics for those books are everything from workplace leadership, uh, workplace communication, leadership, business communication, uh, personal development, and books around publishing and marketing books. And so they come on and talk about their their journey and the ROI of writing a book. I also interview the hub partners, those are the experts I mentioned earlier. So I have interviews, one-on-one interviews with all of them, um, which is they're talking about their services, what they do. A lot of them are authors themselves. They talk about their own journey. And then I uh select authors that I interview one-on-one. And so uh, for example, I recently had AJ Harper on, um, Mike McAllowitz, uh, both of them known through the Profit First book, which is my one of my favorite books to recommend to entrepreneurs. Um so I have books like that on. Um, I've had my clients on. Anyone who can tell a story about successfully leveraging their book for their business, um, it doesn't always have to be volume, like Mike McAllowitz has sold like tons and tons of books. AJ Hopper has co-written those books with him, has been a ghostwriter, runs a writing community. So they both have those kinds of resources, but also just um I just recently interviewed someone for the second time two years after her book came out to talk about you know what's evolved for her since then. And that was sort of an interesting retrospect about um, you know, how do we keep talking about the book in two years in and uh and how it's impacted her business and what she's changed? Like that was a conversation about changing her business a little bit to make the connection a little stronger, renaming some of her programs um and coming up with some new ideas because of the feedback from the book. So uh just such a generous community of people talking about the highs and lows of being on that author journey and giving people the resources to get where they want to go, trying to overcome the many obstacles that could be in their way.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

If you could completely define book launch success in one sentence, what would that sentence be?

SPEAKER_02 30:23

I think it would be knowing ahead of time what you want it to be and then achieving it. Like I think book launch success is such a personal thing. Uh, if it's related to business, uh hey, be that like the client of mine who got five new contracts. Like, no one's gonna argue that that's not success. That is that is money in the bank. Um, and that's the kind of thing I think a lot of authors want. Some people want to be on more stages. I'm looking to just change the conversation in this industry. So, my understanding of success is when I people read my book, take action, uh, and then report back. I mean, sorry I can't do that in a sentence, Curtis.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

No problem. Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Well, Kindle Flash Sal is something I happen to do three times a year. And if they have a book that is, you know, written related to a business, uh, including business fables are invited in, not memoirs, but business fables uh and any kind of book, you know, on these topics. Um, it's just such a collaboration. We just finished one and we have another one coming up in July, and then one Supper Monday, and then we have one in April. So three times a year. Um, it's just a great way to really connect with fellow authors, learn from each other. I'm teaching you a lot of best practices around marketing your book, um, and get, you know, leveraging it to get reviews. So it's a it's a good way to focus on a book. And I have some people who have books that are eight, nine, 10 years old that are evergreen that participate in these campaigns, and they're like, wow, this is wild. How does how does an eight-year-old book sell four dozen uh copies in a week? Like, that's amazing, you know. So um, that's part of what's possible when we are working together and sharing across all of our many audiences about each other's books. So that's a good project. So Kindle Flash Cell, if you go to Bizbookpubhub.com, you'll learn about that, or Kindle FlashSell.com, you'll learn about that.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Biz is spelled with a Z.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

With a Z. B yeah. Biz B I Z Book Pub P Hub H E B dot com. BizBook pub hub. It's an awful.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

That way the listeners will know how to find it. Can you uh close us out with some final thoughts? Maybe if that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners?

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Well, uh someone asked me recently, you know, what my definition of success is. And I say take strategic action without delay. That is my definition. Like this is how I've been able to do what I've done. Take strategic action without delay. I wish I had an acronym for you, but I don't. But I think you know, we spend a lot of time thinking about what we want to do, researching, uh, talking about it. At some point, you gotta make a plan, but it should be informed by as much information as you have in that moment, and you need to be able to move forward, try something out, and you can always reflect and rebuild and and start over again. Um, but take strategic action without delay. It's just been a little bit of a mantra of mine.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

All right, ladies and gentlemen, Bizbookpubhub.com, Biz with a Z. And I know a lot of you guys uh who follow me, listen to the show, who are on my social media or authors. So um maybe Robbie can help you out, and you can also follow Rate Review, share this episode to as many authors and as many entrepreneurs and and people as possible as well. Maybe uh something that Rob Robbie said can help them, or or he can uh he can help them through bizbook pubhub.com. Also go to www.curveball337.com to keep up with all things living a dream. Leave a review, any uh feedback or suggestion for the show is welcome as well. And if you haven't done so, please sign up for the newsletter. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And Robbie, thank you for all that that you're doing for authors and entrepreneurs, and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

My pleasure. Thanks for the invitation.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.