Sales Reimagined: Cam Tolman's Journey to Authentic Connections and the Pitch Down Method

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with Curveball. If you believe, you can achieve. Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today's guest is here to talk about something that we all do, whether we realize it or not, and that is sales. Cam Tolman was on a team of high-performing salespeople, and he understands that sales is not about persuasion or pressure. It's about genuine conversation, asking better questions, and understanding people. Cam is the creator of the pitch down method, a communication framework that focuses on genuine conversation and truly understanding people. So we're going to be talking to Cam about leading this uh high performance uh sales team and how he feels about sales and how we all can be a better salesperson. Because if it's something that we all are doing, whether we know it or not, why not be the best at it? Cam, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Thank you so much, Curtis. I I love to be here, love to share some of my story and hopefully help you and and even myself as we teach and the rest of the audience how we can better connect through better communication and and more curiosity. So excited to be here and share a few ideas.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Well, why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, absolutely. I uh I'll save, I'll keep it brief. Um, I am uh first and foremost a father. I've got three boys. I'm extremely active, they're active, we're a busy, busy family, uh, but I ski, mountain bike, run, I do a lot of triathlons. So I'm a busy guy, and uh I've been now technically in the sales world for about the last nine years. But candidly, I've been in the sales world for the last 41 that I've been alive. And uh it took me about 30 or so years to figure out we're all in sales. And knowing what it's like outside of sales in the professional world and now in it in the professional world, I've taken it upon myself to coach non-sales salespeople what sales actually is, what it means, what it looks like, what it feels like, and most importantly, what it isn't. I see it all day, every day, and I think everybody listening experiences not so great sales tactics on a probably daily basis. And uh I'm on a mission to teach sales in a way that humans hear, feel, and respond to so that we can all make better movement in our lives.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah, we experience not so great sales tactics on a daily basis, especially with the robocalls that are out there. But let's talk about something you said. You know, you said that we all are in sales, but uh you don't have to act like a salesperson. So break that down for the listeners and tell us what you actually mean by that.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Yeah. Tell a quick story. Um, what you were referencing earlier, Curtis, I I was on a very fast-growing team. Company was about 1,400 employees. When I joined, there were only a hundred of us. In two years, we grew to 1400. We're breaking records left and right. And when you're growing that fast, companies have to figure out are we doing the right high, are making the right hires? Are we putting the right people in the right seat? So they they ran the disk analysis. I don't know if you're familiar with that, um, but it's a personality professional profile test to see and determine typically salespeople are in the D quadrant, which is like a dominant quadrant. Uh, your accountants are in the, you know, you can kind of piece and and bucket different roles into uh different quadrants of this personality test and profile. What came up was really interesting. 99.9% of the salespeople lived in one quadrant, like I mentioned up in that top left quadrant in this dominant category. I was in the I and S category, which is about as far away as you can get from D. And I is influential, and S is basically supportive. It's where most of your customer service reps live, sometimes your marketing reps live, but a different personality than you'd typically expect. But Curtis, I was the number two rep in the entire company on a team of about 300 salespeople. And I was as far as you could get away on that quadrant from my peers. And I was a salesperson with the title, but I was not behaving, acting, or being anything like the stereotypical salesperson up in that top left quadrant. And that was a really pivotal moment for my career and has really shaped what I've been doing now for the last several years with Pitch Down, is I've learned the methodologies and psychology and authenticity we can maintain and leverage and utilize in having really good conversations with prospects and current customers, and even families and neighbors and friends, all can help us drive better communication and connection without having to act like the stereotypical dominant personality that we typically associate a salesperson with. And I was proof of that. I was outselling 298 people in my company with a raw and authentic personality to who I am at my core. Because I'm I was not born a salesperson. I was born soft, I was born curious, I was born introspective, I was born gentle, and that's okay. And I want everybody in the world to understand you don't need to put on a different hat to be able to help somebody make a good decision and move towards a good goal.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Well, speaking of what you were born as, uh you started out as a technician and didn't even consider yourself self a salesperson. So what happened uh that made you make that transformation to the top performers or one of the top performers on your uh sales team?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah. Well, uh it's funny you ask about that one. I I was a sophomore in college and was recruited to go do a summer sales program. Um, this company here locally basically recruited a bunch of college kids to go knock doors for the summer and see if they could make some money for themselves and the company. And I said, There's no way I'm gonna go carry a clipboard around and put on the lanyard and knock people's doors and bother them and bug them and sell them something they don't need. I said, I'll I'll follow the salespeople as a technician, but I don't want to be a sales guy. That's just not in my blood. So I moved out to North Carolina, and what I came to find out is the sales guys weren't gonna make sales until about four or four thirty in the afternoon, which left me sitting around waiting for them to sell all day. And I had moved myself across the country with my wife, and I didn't want to sit around and wait. So I decided I'm gonna go out, but I'm gonna stay a technician. I'm not gonna be a sales guy, but I'll knock doors and I'll sell them our services. But as a technician, I get to install it right away and I can use the technician label to avoid being called and seen a salesperson. And Curtis, I I outsold the sales guys. Uh I I just simply went out there and listened and understood and got curious about my customers. I knew a lot about the product, but I just really focused on listening to them, getting curious about them, seeing if there was a need. And I had so many doors open, right? Then I also got to be the technician and I kind of double-dipped in the business. So I think I've kind of played that game my whole career. I was a business owner after that. I hid underneath the the title of owner, uh, even though I was very much a salesperson. And then ultimately finally got myself enough confidence to say, hey, sales is misunderstood. I'm allowed to take on the title of sales because it's not what I thought it was. It's really a different talent and skill set than we typically see at our doorstep or at the used car parking lot. And I finally had the courage to say, hey, I'm going to stand for this and and and take the title because I understand it now. And I'm going to represent sales in a way that I don't think most people do or or see or understand. And that's now my mission is to help people understand what sales really is because we're all in it.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Well, speaking of what sales really is, uh, you say that persuasion often causes people to resist. So why do you feel like uh the traditional sales, the traditional sales method causes people to dig in their heels rather than to take action?

SPEAKER_01 10:11

Oh, it's psychology and science. My book has an entire chapter on all the different biases and resistance that we put up when somebody pushes us and coerces us or persuades us, or whenever we feel anything manipulative, we just lose trust. And we don't like being told what to do. We like to make decisions for ourselves. And that push and persuasion feels like you don't really care about me, Curtis. Are you even listening to me? Do you even understand me? Because this doesn't feel relevant to me. And so that's that's the first part of this, Curtis, is we don't like to be told what to do, pushed into something, or persuaded, or manipulated in any way. The other problem with the traditional sales process is we most customers that we approach are starting in the wrong position. And I'll use an example of a hospital or a doctor. This is an easy one, and I don't mean to be frivolous about this or loose about this, and I'm sensitive to the reality of people's you know health conditions. Uh, so I don't say this lightly, but just imagine um I'll I'll just put it on myself. I'm seemingly a healthy person, right? I'm 41, I'm extremely active. I'm training for my fifth Iron Man this year, but I eat like garbage, Curtis. I eat pizza and hamburgers and drink soda and and I feel good. And I you might think I look okay. Um if I were to go to the hospital today, I frankly I just wouldn't. Because in my mind, I'm healthy. And I'm starting in a place, if I were to, if I were somebody to call me and say, hey, come to the hospital, let's do a checkup, I'd say, I'm fine. I'm just fine. But if you actually got me in there and did a blood, blood, some blood work and took an MRI and took a CAT scan and took some X-rays, you might see something that I can't see. And when I go into the hospital or get approached by the hospital when I'm in a I'm just fine mindset, I'm not in a buyer's mindset because I'm ignorant to what's actually going on. And what doctors are paid to do, and what they learn to do in med school is to diagnose. They learn to read, they learn to look at your MRI, look at the CAT scan, look at the blood work, look at the x-rays, and see things that I can't see, that I can't feel, that I can't interpret. And when a doctor looks at my blood work and sees, for example, my cholesterol is really high, this doctor is going to educate me and get me to a state of reality. I enter that meeting ignorantly thinking I'm great. Within a few minutes, I accurately understand the reality, and I immediately flip from non-buyer to buyer because that education showed me something I wasn't able to see myself. And that, in essence, is a sales process done by a doctor. They haven't even mentioned the medicine that can help with my cholesterol. They haven't gotten me to sign any contract, they haven't gotten me to subscribe to some prescription renewal. But I've gotten myself mentally to a state of I'm ready to change, I'm ready to move. I don't want to continue on this path. I want to be able to play with my grandkids when I'm 70 years old. And although I feel okay, there's something going on that I couldn't see. Thank you, doctor. Thank you, medicine. I'm ready to buy. What can I buy? How fast can I take it? How fast can I change? What do I need to do about my diet? What else do I need to do? And I become a buyer through information. And this is what pitched down, Curtis is really meant to do is to take somebody from a false reality down to their actual reality through your knowledge as an expert. And the doctor analogy is an easy one, but this could be applied to anything. This could be applied to your family, to your clothing, to your car, to your home, to your software, to your business, to your kids. Doesn't matter. We have to reach a point low enough, real enough, personal enough, that we don't accept our current state any longer. At that point, we're ready to change and we'll move quickly.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Well, I know that the uh pitch down method is uh focused on questions and curiosity. So tell us uh what is the one question that can change the sales conversation?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Easy one. Why the question why can get somebody talking and thinking and digging into themselves and understanding why they're doing this, why it's having that impact, why they're not doing anything about it, why they care. The question why is actually what created this whole journey for me. One of my sales managers heard me get off one of my very first sales calls, and I came to him so excited, and I said, His name's Craig. I said, Craig, I just had the best call. They're gonna buy. And he said the same question I just told you. Why? And I said, Oh, they love the tool. Okay, why? I said, uh, because it it's exactly what they need. And he said, Why do they need it? I said, Well, they're they need uh they need our solution, blah blah blah. Why? And I said, Uh I guess I don't know. I guess I don't really know why they need it. They seemed excited, they seemed like they really thought it was worth it and and a good solution, but you asked me why five times, and I'm gonna kind of run out of answers here. And I couldn't answer it. And that was a pivotal moment for me, Curtis, that I stopped and said, you know what? I don't know if I'm actually doing my job. My job is to understand why they care, and to take the customer on a journey to understand why they care. And if both of us can see that and align that why, why they should care, why they should prioritize this, then we're gonna have a great interaction and they're likely to purchase. But if nobody understands why any change should happen, we're stuck. There's nowhere to go and there's no reason to go anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Well, let's talk about that sales process. You know, you you move a person from ignorance to uh awareness to acceptance to acknowledgement and then action. Where do um most salespeople lose people doing that process?

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Oh, from the very beginning. I mentioned this about you know, going back to the doctor analogy. Most of us just operate in ignorance about so many bits and pieces of our lives. And I understand it and I have respect for it and myself and anybody else. Curtis, there's so much going on. We are bombarded with so much distraction, so many emails, so many social media reels, so much busyness in our lives. We just don't have time to be experts at everything. And so we operate not in any rude way, but ignorantly about so many different aspects of our life. We just can't be experts at every little bit and piece of our life. And what salespeople misunderstand, and and all of us being in sales, uh, have to understand our role is education more than it is teaching my product, it's teaching Curtis his reality. When somebody's in a state of ignorance, they're gonna assume everything's just fine with my the tires on my car. But if I were to drive over to and pick your favorite tire shop here locally, I guarantee you that an expert who looks at and understands tires and and deals with tires all day, every day, would look at my truck tires for one second and say, those are dangerous tires. Those are worn, they're uneven, you've got a bald spot here, you've got an uneven wear pattern. I mean, I don't even know all the words and language. But they'd be able to see and teach and coach me out of ignorance into a state of reality, at which point I would change my behavior because I'd realize, oh, my three boys are in this truck every day, and I'm putting them in an unsafe situation. We got a snow season coming. That ignorance is our fault as salespeople. It's not the fault of our customer to not know better. It's our fault as salespeople to not educate and show our customers and create that step one awareness that there's a problem here and get that customer to acknowledge and own, oh, that's actually happening to me, and then accept I don't want to be here anymore. At which point, action takes over and customers change their behavior. And typically that involves a quote-unquote sale with an exchange of money. So that ignorance is really where everything gets stuck, and that's what I coach my clients and my book and my audience and my groups. I teach them to help take their customers out of an ignorant state into awareness where the process really begins.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Well, since you mentioned your book, go ahead and tell listeners about the book and uh what they can expect when they read it and where they can get it.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Yeah, thank you, Curtis. Pitch Down is my company, pitch down is my book, pitch down is the methodology. We're all in. Uh, I need to get the message that it's our turn as as salespeople and humans and friends and family members to to pitch down. We got to take people out of that ignorant state to an awareness of reality. We do that with love, we do that with tact, and that's what I teach in the book. I teach integrity, I teach honesty, I teach curiosity and how you can leverage really genuine questions to guide people to reality with no real destination in mind. And I think that's one of the key principles of me being the non sales sales coach, is we all have expectations that someone's going to be manipulative or insincere or coercive or persuasive for their own benefit. And we've got to get that out of our systems and out of our language and out of our hearts and minds. Because that is what creates a bad experience and a bad, frankly, bad purchase. If we can just find that authenticity and stay curious, we're gonna take our friends, our family, our peers, our customers to a place of reality. And they'll be able to make a good decision for themselves. And that's what the book is built to do. It's built to teach everybody. In part one, we talk about the problems that exist in the space, like we've talked about already here. In part two, I teach the methodology of the book and how to put this into practice. And then in part three, we give tangible, actionable prompts for everybody in any role. If you're in HR, if you're in operations, if you're in home services, if you're a mother, stay-at-home mom, I don't care. There's a section in there for you to get some prompts and some additional guidance specific to your role, both professionally and personally, and how you can adopt the methodology of pitchdown. The book is available one last time at pitchdown.com. And that's where I've got everything: my community, my socials, my newsletter, my book, um, and some coaching opportunities are in there as well.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

We're focusing back in on the customer. Why do you feel like so many customers know that they have a problem, know that they need a solution, but and even knowing all this, they do absolutely nothing.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

I'm writing that one down. I gotta answer that one. You know, I'll say two things, Curtis. I think for the to begin, I'm not sure that every customer does know they have a problem. We might get surface level agreement, but we don't have deeply rooted understanding within our customers of the problem that they're actually facing. I think that is more than often the reality. We might hear, yeah, that was a great presentation. That was really interesting. Hmm. Yeah, I could totally use that. But that's a surface level response versus how quickly can I get that cholesterol medicine? Um, I think there's a lack of awareness there. Um, and that's again on us as salespeople is we don't take people to the place of reality. When somebody does understand their problem, is that problem big enough? Is it urgent enough? Have they measured the weight and the cost of that problem? Right? The down methodology stands for discovery, right? So discovering my own problem. O is owning the problem, W is weighing the cost, and N is of course navigating some change, and that's what we're meant to do. So I challenge was the discovery done on the customer side? Did they discover their own problem? Number two, do they own that problem and accept and own this is big? And and have they weighed the cost of doing nothing? If we can take them through that process, 99% of the time, someone's gonna end navigate their way to a solution and turn the corner and do something about it. It's our job to both guide that, but then also be patient because Curtis, the reality is not everybody's ready at every moment. We sometimes just have to be patient, follow up, follow through, and be there when the time's right.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Well, in a world filled with AI automation scripts and increasing human communication, why do you feel like genuine human connection is becoming more valuable valuable versus less valuable?

SPEAKER_01 27:32

HI is my methodology. Human intelligence is what we're all craving. Curtis, we get real personal, we could get real real about this, but it's a lonely world out there. And the more machines and screens take over our attention, the one way to stand out today is to go where far frankly almost nobody is, and that's human. That's face-to-face, that's a handshake, that's a a zoom call, a phone call like this, a postcard in the mail, a handwritten note. I I see more in my inbox coming from automated machines trying to do a salesperson's job. And yes, can it get reach? Can it produce volume? Can it uh spread like wildfire while I'm sleeping? Of course. And there are some amazing efficiencies that come with AI. I use it myself every day, but I don't use it to try and connect with humans who need to talk to other humans with empathy, with heart, with love, with understanding, with true recommendations and learning and re understanding whether this is an interaction that should or shouldn't happen. AI is gonna say you should buy, you should buy, you should buy. Humans should say, No, I don't think this is a good option for you. I don't think this is a good purchase. Or this is a great purchase, and here's why. That human interaction, in my opinion, is gonna be the differentiator in 2026 and beyond, because it's just frankly hard to find a good human that'll actually put in that effort, talk to you, and humans want to be heard, they want to be understood.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Well, what do you feel is the biggest mistake that people make when trying to be authentic and give some best practice tips on how people can become more authentic in their conversation?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

I love that one. Authenticity is where you're gonna really feel heard, you're gonna feel understood, and people buy from people they know, they like and they trust. And it's pretty quick and easy to understand when somebody's being unauthentic and trust is gone immediately. Authenticity comes from, frankly, what it is, just being yourself. If you're an accountant, be an accountant. You don't need to dress up as some slick, smooth-talking salesperson if that's not your personality, if that's not raw and genuine in your bones, in your DNA behavior, don't do it. You don't need to be someone you're not to make a sale. In fact, arguably, those who aren't themselves are gonna have the hardest time selling, and that's why I'm the non-sales sales coach. Is I'm here to teach and train and coach that everybody's in sales and you don't need to be a salesperson by stereotype. So that authenticity means if you're a car mechanic, be a great car mechanic and come out with your hands greasy and teach me what you know. Don't you don't need to polish, I'll fist bump you or bump your elbow. We don't need to shake hands. Come out with your greasy hands and teach me what what you know and that I don't. Be authentic. I don't think there's any better way to make a sale than to be yourself and connect with me with who you really are, because I'll feel that authenticity and I will gain that trust that will make me like you and I will want to work with you.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Well, if you could completely eliminate one common sales tactic from the business world, what would that be and why?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Choosing one is tough. I'll say this: it's the easiest one for me to spot, and it's the one I catch and try to break as quickly as possible is talking before you listen. And if you think about most any sales engagement you've ever had, a conversation typically is one or two pleasantries, and all I'm listening for is you to stop so I can start talking. Because I prepared a speech, a slide deck, a presentation. I've got objection handling that I'm ready to overcome. So whatever you throw at me, I have my whole script ready. And that is a backwards approach. That's a self-centered sales-first approach that needs to be flipped 180. And my job is to not talk, but to listen first. So if I could eliminate one, it would be don't prepare, don't present, no slides, no powerpoints, no presentation. Come in, get curious, ask some questions, shut your mouth, and listen.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

I know you have a saying that says the best decisions aren't sold, they're discovered. So break that down for the listeners and tell them how they can begin to apply that.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Oh, it's it this is the whole methodology. And and I could spend days talking about this one. Discovery is the responsibility of the customer to self-discover their reality. It's the responsibility of the salesperson to guide that discovery towards any outcome, no matter what outcome, no matter what direction it goes. Your job is to get Cam to reality. Cam, you run Iron Man's. Why? Well, I want to play with my grandkids when I'm 70 years old. Tell me about your diet. I eat a bunch of junk because I'm always hungry. Great. How do you feel? Fine. Can I show you what's really going on under the surface? Yep. Okay, now seeing these results. This isn't looking so good. I'm discovering with this doctor who's far more educated about this than I am, my own reality and that it does not match and align with my long-term goals. I might feel okay today, but that behavior, that diet, that pattern is not going to serve me in another 15, 20, or 30 years when I've got grandkids trying to run around my backyard with them, jumping on the trampoline with them, and I'm struggling to get out of the chair. So that discovery is my job, my process as the customer, to take myself to reality, guided by the expert. The best purchases are discovered, not sold, not pushed, not persuaded, not discounted. They're discovered by the customer themselves. When that happens, the behavior and movement, the purchase is natural and automatic.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Oh, there's always an idea stirring, Curtis. You probably do the same. I am building a community called Tuesdays at two. Currently, I uh I live in Mountain Time. So Tuesdays at 2 o'clock Mountain Time, I have a community that comes together and we do live sales coaching for non-sales professionals. So I've got farmers in there, I've got accountants in there, I've got, gosh, you name it. I've got a mom in there, I've got people from all over learning together how sales works. Tuesdays at two is a community that's as we continue to grow it, going to be a time zone specific Tuesday event. So I'll do an Eastern, Central, Mountain, and Pacific time class for every time zone. But we dive deep into the principles and methodologies and strategies that guide people to making good decisions as we are all in sales. So it's a fun community, and then continuing to grow that. That's a fun project, along with the book uh that's released. So pitch down the book, pitch down the methodology. Um, and I'm on tour, Curtis, speaking at conferences, seminars. I'm uh speaking to insurance agencies, accounting firms, um, coaching independent and individual businesses, but associations and industries alike on how to implement and drive these methodologies within every industry that doesn't include typically this the title of sales.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Pitch down the book, pitch down the methodology, pitchdown.com, the website, and Cam is on tour like a rock star. So when it comes to a town near you, be sure to go here and speak. Close us out with some final thoughts. Maybe if there was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Curtis, I I I want to just say thank you. I I care deeply about connection. Connection is critical in a world today that's starving for real connection. And I think we as humans all have the responsibility to get curious and listen. It's real easy to talk. And I feel like a hypocrite here talking so much, but I hope I've been able to share a few thoughts and ideas. But what I would ask everybody, no matter what, if you buy my book or not, if you join my community or not, if you come and see me speak or not, I want you to go be curious with somebody today. Put yourself second, ask more questions, ask a few people why. And if you ask them two, three, four, five times in a row, why? Why tell me more about that? Why you'll really help somebody feel heard, feel understood. You'll unpack something in them that you can really hear and understand, and you might get them to a state of reality where they see things a little differently, they understand things a little differently. At that point, you might be able to give them some marital advice, some parenting advice, some business advice, some type of advice that makes their life a little better. This this level of curiosity and listening, asking good questions creates better connection. And when we've got better connection in this world, it it runs a whole lot better. So go be curious, connect with somebody today.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Absolutely, ladies and gentlemen. And go be curious and visit pitchdown.com, check out everything that cams up to. Pick up that book and follow rate review, share this episode to as many people as possible. Also, please be curious and check out www.curveball337.com to keep up with all things living the dream. And I also share that website and share the show to everybody that you know. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And yeah, Cam, I can definitely tell you deeply care and you're passionate about genuine human connection. So thank you for all that you do, and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Thank you, Curtis. And to everybody listening, thanks for joining, and hopefully we'll see you out there.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.