Redemption Road: Jack Hager's Journey from Darkness to Light

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome. You can welcome to the Living the Dream with Curve Bowl Podcast. I show what any of you guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today's guest has lived a life that reads like a raw, unfiltered redemption story. From a path marked by crime, addiction, incarceration, and finding faith behind bars. Jack Hager journey is anything but ordinary. Since 1978, Jack has dedicated his life to serving others through prison, church, youth, and he shares a powerful story of personal responsibility and the choices that we make. So we're going to be talking to Mr. Hager about his story and everything that he's up to and gonna be up to. So Jack, thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

My pleasure, brother.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Well, the reality is I'm older than Dirt, 78. I was born into a military family a long time ago. My parents were what they call functioning alcoholics, not rolling in the gutter alcoholics, but functioning. My dad was career military, so we moved around a lot. I used to think our family was screwed up, then I went to college and found out we were dysfunctional because dysfunctional sounds so much better, I guess. I do not blame my parents for any of the choices I made. And to me, that's a key word, choice. We make our choices, then our choices make us. At any rate, um grew up as a child of the 60s, graduated in 1965. By that time, I was probably an alcoholic, never so diagnosed, but I was drinking since I was about 11 or 12, committing some petty crime here or there, got busted a couple times as a kid. Both times they did what they unfortunately still do, basically. They slapped me on the wrist and said, Don't you ever do this again, or we're gonna. I wish they would have taught me that actions have consequences back then, but instead they simply yelled and screamed and didn't do a whole lot. For some reason, school was not academically hard for me, got good grades, even though I didn't go often. As I mentioned, graduated in 65, was given a couple of scholarships, but I said to myself, I don't want to go to school. But at the same time, I was starting to hear about a place called Vietnam, and I decided I didn't want to go to Vietnam either. So I talked to my Army recruiter, filled out the papers, took the tests. At the end of a certain period of time, he said, Mr. Hager, you are scored in the top 10%. You are exactly what the Army is looking for. And if you enlist in the Army Security Agency for four fun fold years, not only do you not go to Vietnam, you probably won't even go overseas. I fell for it, went to basic training, AIT, etc. Went to Korea for 25 months. From Korea, I went to Germany for two months. Then I finished up my military career in Vietnam. In Korea, I introduced myself to marijuana and some other drugs, not because I was in Korea, not because I was in the Army, but because I made the personal choice and the personal decision to roll the first joint and take the first hit. In Germany, I dropped LSD a little bit until I got scared of it, one of the smarter things I did. In Vietnam, I skin-popped heroin, did some other stuff, uh, was honorably discharged from the military in July of 69, came back to the States, and like all of us who came back to the States from Dom, was not exactly warmly received. At that particular point in my life, I was not a fan of the United States. Uh I didn't like it very much at all, so I ran from it, went back overseas for a while, came back to Hawaii, bummed around for a while, met a young lady, she introduced me to some guys she was working for on the side, went to the West Coast, and for a few years got involved in multi-level marketing that happened to be illegal. I understand there are some that think all multi-level marketing should be illegal, but that's another story. But we were dealing with drugs, primarily guns and a few other things. Got away with it for quite a while, made a lot of money, did all the stuff, the stories that people have heard. In December of 1973, uh we went to Texas. In Texas, I was arrested. Texas had no charges on me. They're arresting me on fugitive warrants from Oregon, California, and the feds. The same night they arrested me, they arrested a few of the other guys in the organization. They threw me in jail in San Angelo, Texas. There I was awaiting extradition. To this day, I don't know how Oregon got first is. Maybe they did rock, paper, scissors, I don't know. But eventually Oregon came and picked me up, brought me back to Oregon. Eventually I pled no le contendrain, no contest, uh plea bargained some stuff, got sentenced to a dime, 10 years, did four. While I was doing that time, California dropped the charges. The federales elected not to prosecute. Uh, so in 1977, I was released on parole, uh, ended up going to a Bible school in Kansas City, and as you mentioned, have been in full-time camp, church, prison, youth ministry since 1978. That's the long and the short of it. Of course, there's more to the story. How did a alcoholic, drug-dealing, drug-using uh scumbag, if you will, end up being ordained as a reverend and doing prison ministry, etc. But that's the uh quick overview.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Well, talk about uh was there a specific breaking point during your time uh incarcerated that made you open to change?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Well, oddly enough, when the it's when the lights went on, they cuffed me and took me, I was kind of excited about it. Because even though I was 26 years old, I felt I'd done everything twice, and there was a level of boredom. I couldn't let anybody else know about that. But the end of the day, two o'clock, three o'clock in the morning, waking up thinking, is this all there is? And again, I had a bunch of money, had all kinds of stuff, but there was an emptiness inside that I was hardly willing to admit to myself and certainly wouldn't admit to anybody else. So I had never been in prison before, I'd been in jail a few times, but never been in prison. So this was kind of a new adventure, something new. It certainly wasn't on my bucket list, but it was something new, so I was sort of kind of excited about it. While in jail, they found some drugs. They weren't necessarily mine, but they found some drugs, which is not unusual because drugs are easier to get behind the walls than they are on the street. The unusual thing is they punished us, they took the TV set away, they took the Louis Lemoire Westerns, they took the poker cards, the Monopoly game, the weights, they took everything out except the religious junk. And that's exactly the way I looked at religion as a bunch of junk, a bunch of science fiction, a bunch of fairy tales. But after a couple days of having nothing to do, I went over to the pile of books, and I suppose there were Bibles and other things there. Didn't want to read the Bible. I was a man, did the crime, I could do the time, didn't need this chump change stuff. But the block at the bottom of the pile was a paperback book with an American flag on it that had the word prison in the title. So I said, you know what? I'm gonna read this book, disregard the science fiction stuff, and see what this turkey has to say about prison. It might give me some information that will make doing time more easy for me. So I picked up the book. It was a story of a World War II drunk who got busted in jail. A chaplain, quote unquote, led him to the Lord, he became a Christian, got out, started a church in San Diego, the church got big, etc. Just basically his story. And I got to the end of it and said, eh, kind of interesting. Put it down. In the book, though, he kept quoting Bible verses. So I said to myself, you know, this guy thinks the Bible is more important than his story. I had never read the Bible before, had never been in church except for weddings and funerals, had no idea what Jesus was except a swear word, but he kind of pointed me to the Bible. So I picked up a Bible, had no idea what the Bible was, just thought it was one big book instead of a bunch of books written over 1400 years by 40 different authors in three different languages, etc. So I started at Genesis and somehow made it through numbers and made it through the other stuff, got to the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and went all the way to Revelation and said, okay, this is cool, but I don't need it. And I remember throwing the book across the cell block. But I couldn't get this Jesus out of my head, couldn't get Jesus out of my mind. Humanly speaking, I think the first thing that attracted me to Jesus was the fact that in the Gospels, he never put down the hookers, he never put down the tax collectors, he never hammered the scumbags. In fact, the only people he did hammer were the religious people. And I thought that was kind of cool. But anyway, after a while, after a few days, I went and picked it up again, picked the Bible up again, read some more, and uh the light sort of went on. Uh, I didn't know Bible terminology at the point, but on January 30th, 1974, in a very simple way, the Bible says that God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever prays the prayer, no, it doesn't say that. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever goes forward and joins the church. No, it doesn't say that either. God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes on him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. And in a very simple way, and probably a theologically screwed-up way, I trusted Christ, believed Christ, received Christ, whatever terminology people want to use. I was born again, converted, saved, again, whatever terminology people want to use. And at that point, I became a stumbling follower of Jesus Christ. And all these many years later, I still am a stumbling follower of Jesus Christ. And uh that revolutionized my life. The Bible says if any man be in Christ, he's a new creation. It didn't make everything honky-dory, it didn't make everything wonderful, but there was an awareness in my life that Jesus Christ was real, that he had forgiven me, that he accepted me, that he brought me into his family, and that I was no longer destined to a godless hell, but I was destined to heaven. And so even during the four years, uh gave me a chance to read the Bible more. Uh, the chaplain was as lost as an Easter egg, so he wasn't much help. But there were guest speakers that came in and Bible studies, etc., that helped me grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Um, made parole, ended up going to a Bible school in Kansas City that uh equipped me a little bit more, and as mentioned, went into full-time vocational ministry in uh late 1978. And I'm amazed they get to do what I get to do, but I'm gonna keep on doing it until I croak.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Well, how do you feel like your faith reshaped your identity while you were?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Uh, totally, absolutely, unconditionally. Um, I went from being do unto others before they do unto you. I went from someone who loved doing drugs, loved getting drunk, loved all that stuff. Uh, because bottom line, sin is fun, and that shocks some people when I say that. But if sin wasn't fun, we wouldn't be tempted to sin. And yet we're all tempted to sin, and we're all tempted to fail, we're all tempted to fall. And so, as I read the Bible, as I studied the Bible, as I listened to sermons, as I grew, I began to understand that I wasn't anything special except for the fact that God had made me like he'd made everybody, and that by his grace I had been redeemed. I was adopted as his child, I was forgiven, I was justified, I was made new. So it totally radicalized my outlook on life. It did not make me holier than thou, it did not make me a super saint, it did not make me hopefully obnoxious in my faith, but it gave me a solid identity that I was saved, that I was a child of God, that my pastor was forgiven, my present made sense, and that my future was secure. And uh I've continued by his grace to grow in that. And I figure maybe I'm in spiritual kindergarten at this point, but I want to keep going.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Well, I know you spent decades in ministry, so can you share a story that uh stuck with you? Uh a powerful story of transformation from someone.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Well, the when I got out of prison, uh the first job I got was a minister of sanitation, otherwise known as a janitor, in a church in Southern California. And while there, the idiots said, Why don't you be our youth guy? And I say idiots with a little bit of love, but I know they were thinking, hey, we get this ex-con to be our youth guy, it'll draw all kinds of people, it'll be great. They knew nothing about me, my friend. Uh, that was before they could go online and get my record. The only thing they knew was what I told them. I could have been a pedophile or anything like that. But anyway, by God's grace, I didn't do anything stupid. The youth group grew, it gave me an opportunity to share. And at the time, it was just a thing to do. I had no idea what I was going to do for a career. But in Easter of 1977, the the uh church had a Christian school attached to it, K through 6, and they told me they wanted me to wash all the windows. I said, okay, and they gave me a couple teenagers to help me. And in that process, a young man said, Why don't you come to my YFC club and share your story? And I said, What's a YFC club? And he explained to me it was Youth for Christ. Went to that place, shared my story. It uh seemed to work, it seemed to be the young people were attentive, and I said, This is kind of cool. And uh in a week or two, I met a guy named Jerry Johnston, who was a product of Kansas City Youth for Christ, also a product of Liberty University, otherwise known as Jerry Falwell Tech. And uh he was traveling the country trying to recruit people to go to Kansas City School. He talked to me about the school, a year-long school, three hours a day in Bible, one hour a day in methods of youth work, the rest of the time, slave labor for Kansas City Youth for Christ. It appealed to me. I uh approached my parole officer, he was willing to move my parole from California to Missouri and jumped through the hoops, did all that stuff, eventually ended up in Kansas City, went to school. While there, I began preaching pretty regularly in Bible clubs and churches, etc. And that summer they asked me to speak at a youth camp, and that began a series of weeks of youth ministry at camp that has resulted, if you add all the weeks together, four years of my life as a camp speaker. My favorite place to preach is prison because the guys or girls already know that they're a mess. My least favorite place to share is Christian high schools and Christian colleges because they think they know everything. Except for prison, my favorite place is Christian camps, because I have the opportunity not just to preach, that's the easy part, so to speak, but to hang out with the kids, get to know them. And uh I think ministry happens by walking around, by looking young people or adults in the eye and listening to them and trying to share with them. I have seen many people apparently come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, uh, to include some that are now in their 40s and 50s as pastors, youth pastors, prison workers, etc. No particular story comes to mind, except for one man who happened to be an African American. He was in Vietnam the same time I was, and he professed faith. Uh, and he's doing double life. He will never see the streets. But he is uh such a transparent, it doesn't hurt that he's in good shape and tall and athletic, etc., even though he's in his 70s now, but he is so vibrant and so, if you will, on fire that the prison officials intentionally move him from cell block to cell block every now and then, because they know wherever he goes, things change. And that should be true of all Christians, but it's really true in his case. And uh every time I see him, he shares with me. Jack, thanks for coming, man. I say, no, man, thanks for being you. Thanks for sharing. I'm getting more out of being with you, certainly more than you are getting out of being with me. And you know, there's no, well, sadly, there are celebrity Christians. There shouldn't be. Every Christian is saved by grace, every Christian has a ministry. Some of us are called into full-time vocational ministry, but a school teacher, a housewife, a podcast host, anybody who knows Jesus has a ministry. And uh, we just need to be taking advantage of the opportunities God gives us to brag on Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

Well, I know you talk a lot about personal responsibility, but how do you communicate that to people who uh feel like they're victims of that circumstance?

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Well, I try to empathize with them. I try them, I try to make them understand that certainly our upbringing affects our life. Certainly uh my parents' alcoholism contributed to me becoming an alcoholic. I have vague memories of being in Germany, maybe four years old, and my parents drinking a lot and giving me a little beer stein of beer occasionally. I don't think that made me an alcoholic, but that was my introduction to alcohol. But as far as, you know, whether I'm in prison or on the street or in any environment, if somebody says it's not my fault, that uh puts me into overdrive. And I don't want to hammer them, I don't want to come down on them, I just want to remind them that yeah, the fact that you were born in the ghetto, the fact that you were born to a single mom, the fact that you were molested as a kid, the fact that, you know, all those things are are horrible and they contribute. But whether you share my faith or don't share my faith, as a human being, you've got this incredible responsibility of choice. And you need to man up, woman up, take responsibility for your actions, because unless and until you do, you can't turn it around. Again, without with or without Jesus Christ, anybody can make it. But I don't think they can make it until they say, you know what, I've done a lot of stupid stuff, and there were a lot of things that contributed to it, but nobody held a gun to my head and told me to deal drugs, nobody held a gun to my head and told me to sleep around, nobody held a gun to my head and fill in the blank. I did it because I did it, and if I take responsibility for that, I can change it. It's not going to be instantaneous, it's not going to be easy, but I can change it, but only if I take responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Well, after working with you prisoners and communities for so long, what what patterns do you see repeated across different lives?

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I didn't hear the last part of that, but patterns, uh, I don't think it's getting any better. Uh, I think if anything, well, for instance, prison. And maybe not every prison is this way, but when I checked into prison, not because I was Jack A. Group, but because I was 36403, when I checked into prison, they have the what they call the reception period where they give you uh basic intelligence tests, square peg round hole tests, inkblot tests. What do you see? I see an ink blot, ink blot. No, what do you really see? I see an elephant on a surfboard. I don't care, whatever you want me to see. At the end of that, and you're interviewed by a psychologist, the chaplain, some other people. At the end of that time, they brought me in front of the board. They said, Mr. Hager, the reason why you're a dealer and a thief is because of the bad attitude you have to the United States because of your tour of duty in Vietnam. They certainly didn't mean to, but what have they just told me? They told me it's not my fault. It's Vietnam's fault. And to another guy, it may say, you know, you're a racial minority, it's not your fault, or your Parents did this, your parents did that. And I'm these are good people, I'm sure. And they're not trying to program you to fail, but in essence, they do, instead of saying, you know what, jerk, you made some dumb choices. You need to change your life around. And I think sometimes authorities, whether they're parents, school principals, or cops, do the same thing by saying, you know, I'm going to give you one more chance, going to give you one more chance. Instead of saying, you know, the constant thing that I hear from teenagers, not from the teens, but from their parents, well, he was a good kid until he got involved with the wrong crowd. I get that, but the wrong crowd didn't do it to him. He did it to himself. And as I said, brother, I don't think it's getting any better. If anything, it's getting worse because we seem to be a nation of victims.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Well, for someone listening right now who feels trapped in their past decisions, what is the first step in turning things around?

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Well, obviously, I from my standpoint, the first step is come to faith in Jesus Christ. That doesn't make all things better, but it secures your future and gives you the help of God. Whether you accept that or don't accept that, the first step, you know, depending on your age and your circumstance, I guess, is to get around people who will help you make better decisions, not hang with the people or the crowd that influences you. The Bible itself says evil companions corrupt good morals. And frankly, that's one of the toughest things for a guy or a girl hitting the street from prison, is that in many cases, probably most cases, they go back to an environment that they fell from. They go back to maybe parents that have records, friends that have records. And I just really encourage them, again, if they share my faith, get involved with a good church. Even if they don't share my faith, find a way to get away from those influences and surround yourself with people who are positive, not disgustingly positive, not come to Jesus and get healthy and wealthy, but people that are going to be real with you, real enough to look you in the face and say, hey, Turkey, don't do that. That's stupid. And real enough to say, hey, I may not be able to give you money, but I am here from you. Let's talk this thing through. You have to, a fresh start sounds easy, it's not, but you have to decide if you're going to be a victim or rise up from that. And whatever your age, live the rest of your life as a person who's in charge of his choices, strives to make good choices, and when a bad choice is made, takes responsibility for that, shakes it off, and moves ahead.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Well, I did write a book finally. Uh, for 40 years, people told me to write a book, but I didn't want to because I knew in order for it to be published, I'd have to write 11 chapters of the garbage and one chapter of my faith. Uh, and then when self-publishing came along, I figured, eh, you know, I don't think there's enough juice for the squeeze. I'm not going to do it. And then through a string of kicks in the head, I finally did write one a couple of years ago. It's titled Captured by Grace. It's available on Amazon, etc. It's just kind of a brief flyover of my life sharing some of the uh incidents in the military, incidents on the street, most importantly, my conversion and incidents in prison. People have uh talked to me about writing a second book. I don't I'm not sure I'm gonna do that. I do some TikTok stuff, do some YouTube stuff, do a blog, do a lot of social media. Uh again, I am 78. A couple years ago I got diagnosed with uh multiple myeloma, a form of blood cancer. I'm doing pretty well, but at my age and with the cancer, I don't know if I have enough time to finish a book. But and uh because of my uh reduced immune system, the doctors really don't like me going behind the walls anymore. So most of my prison ministry is through email, through correspondence, through phone calls, etc. I continue to do youth ministry even though I'm older than Dirt. And uh I made, you know, maybe I'll start a book, maybe not. I don't know. So there's no real project except keep doing what I've been doing, which is, as you mentioned, uh youth ministry, prison ministry from a different perspective, speaking in camps, although I don't do that as often as I do because I just don't have the energy to do it. And churches, when they invite me, etc. So I'm just excuse me, trying to make myself available. The Bible says God opens doors that no man can shut, and he's opened a door for me to talk to cool people like you, and hopefully he'll continue to do that.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Absolutely. Well, so people can keep up with everything that you're up to, so that's a contact info.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Well, the best way is email jack.hager h-a-g-er at gmail, and uh it's what I do. You know, people may say, Well, I don't want to pester him, I don't want to bother him. It's not pestering, it's not bothering. It's what I do, and because of the cancer, I'm a little more limited in what I can do face to face. I'd love to hear from people and discuss things of the faith, discuss personal responsibility, uh, listen and discuss whatever they want to discuss. And uh, I'd enjoy doing that, and they are more than welcome to do so.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Close us out with some final thoughts. Maybe if that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, any final thoughts you have for the listeners.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Well, I would like them to read the book and a step beyond that. If they do decide to buy the book, I think it's like nine bucks or less, I'd encourage them to buy two copies of the book, one for themselves, and one to donate to a halfway house, a jail, a prison in their neighborhood. Uh, I'm just in asking God to do with the book what that book in the jail cell so many years ago did for me, introduced me to the faith. Beyond that, for those who share my faith, don't waste time praying for opportunities to share Christ. Just do it. The opportunities are everywhere. Just do it. For those who don't share my faith, may I dare you, encourage you, just read the Gospel of John. Just read it, and when you get to the end of it, shoot me an email and tell me what you think about it. Um, other than that, make your choices, make wise choices, encourage other people to do, moms and dads, grandparents. There's no such thing as an ill illegitimate kid, but there are way too many many illegitimate parents. Parent your children well, love them enough to let them hate you short term, meaning don't be afraid to discipline them and teach them that actions have consequences, sometimes not very good consequences. Thing that scares me to death is fentanyl. You know, that was unheard of back in my day. Cocaine was outrageously expensive. I was smart enough not to do LSD and not to do some of the other stuff. I'm not suggesting that marijuana is a good thing or alcohol is a good thing, but I am saying, you know, stuff on the street now can kill you instantly. And we need to warn our kids and warn uh our culture that uh it's a deadly thing out there and we need to be wise.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Absolutely, ladies and gentlemen. So please share this episode to everybody you know. Like Jack said, get two copies of that book, read one for yourself and and donate it uh to the places where people need it the most. And once again, share this episode to as many people as possible. Also, please share www.curveball337.com and allow uh anybody you know to listen to not only this episode but the rest of the episodes that I have uh because I want to help people and want to teach, motivate, and inspire. So thank you for listening and supporting the show. And Jack, thank you for all that you're doing and the honesty that you come with and preaching personal responsibility, because uh in some ways we seem to lost that these days, and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Thank you, brother. It's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.