Seeing Beyond Disability: The Transformative Journeys of Jennifer and Keisha

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with Curveball. If you believe, you can achieve. Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today, we're going to have a powerful conversation surrounding disability, resilience, belonging, and seeing people for who they truly are. Today, I am joined by two guests. First, Jennifer Jasmine Brown, who is an educator, disability advocate, and author of See Us, Know Us, Profiles of Disability, and by the great Keisha Graves, who is a motivational speaker, who turned her experience with muscular dysography and to a powerful tool to empower others through Girls Chronically Rock. So we're going to be talking about seeing beyond people's disability and seeing people for who they truly are. So Keisha and Jennifer, thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Thank you for having us. Yes. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Well, why don't the two of you start off by telling each other or telling the listeners about yourselves?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Okay, well, hello everybody. My name is Keisha Graves. Um I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I'm the owner of Girls Chronically Rock, and I have um limb girdle muscular dystrophy. And yeah, that's pretty much a little intro to me of who I am to start with.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

And I am Jen Chasman Brown. Um I am an educator for most of my life, teaching high school English and working as a school leader. Um, and then more recently, somebody who works to um do disability education and advocacy. I live with rheumatoid arthritis. I've had it since I was six. Um, and when it became visible when I was in my 40s, it changed my life significantly because I suddenly was viewed first as a person with limitations and disability and seen as a person who needed help. And so I've been working hard to break down some of the stereotypes and misconceptions that people who are non-disabled have about the disabled body and people with disabilities, including work with the book that Curtis mentioned, C Us Know Us Profiles of Disability, where I tell the stories of 30 people with disabilities, a diverse group, including Keisha. Hopefully, people will read that and have a better understanding of the diversity within the disability community and also how to be a great advocate to those with disabilities.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Well, Jennifer, I want I would like to start out by asking you how did growing up with RA and a person with a disability shape the person and advocate that you have now become?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

So it's a really interesting question because I um my disability was less impactful when I was young. And it wasn't something such a different time than now. Like it wasn't something that we talked about as a family or that I was part of a disability community in any way. So I hid it and I didn't talk about it, and I just kind of lived with the limitations that I had and tried to do as much as I could. But like I said, I hid it. So it wasn't something that was that I was open about. And when it became visible, and I had to be open about it because people could see it, that was a very different experience for me. Um and I feel like I'm still trying to figure out how to be a person living with a disability in a world that is not often welcoming to us. Um, so you ask, like, how do I what do I do? I don't know. It's different each day. I'm still really learning. Um, and I learn from people like Keisha and I learn from other people that I know who are in the book and outside of the book of just how to have the strength, how to maintain my own sense of myself, my own self-esteem, and also pursue the things that both bring me joy and feel important for me to spend my time doing. I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Oh, it absolutely does. And and and tell us uh what inspired you to write your book.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

I was inspired to write the book because when I was doing disability um education and advocacy and trainings, training sessions, like people started to become kind of resistant to and dismissive of the things that I was saying, but they were never resistant to or dismissive when a person in the room, me or somebody else, told their story. So when I saw people responding to personal stories and responding to the experiences of their colleagues and their classmates, I realized that the storytelling was a super powerful way to connect people, to build empathy. Um, and that's really where the book came from was wanting to tell stories because I think we are open to learning from each other. I think when we hear someone's personal story, we, like I said, lead with compassion, we lead with empathy, we lead with a desire to create connection and to find understanding. Um, and so that's really where the book was born was let me do this continued work that I want to do of educating people about what it is to be a person with a disability, but let me do it in a way that builds connection between people and helps people see that mostly we're very similar. Um both, you know, people with disabilities and people who are non-disabled.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Well, Keisha, I know receiving a diagnosis of muscular dystrophy uh could have changed your life in a negative way, but you chose to use it to empower and create Girls Chronically Rock. So for those who might not know, explain to the listeners what muscular dystrophy is and tell us about Girls Chronically Rock and what inspired it.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

Okay, sure. Well, again, hello everybody. I'm Keisha. And yes, so I started Girls Chronically Rock in 2017. I wanted to create something to help inspire and motivate others in the disability community. What made me start it is I always had a passion for fashion. So I knew I wanted to do some designing, own a business, just wanted to do me. And so I um, you know, started Girls Chronically Rock because after I was diagnosed with muscular dystrophy in 2010, that totally took a whirl on me. I was like only in my early 20s in graduate school. So that was a lot to take in of the doctor saying, like, you have muscular dystrophy. And so that totally took a whirlwind, but I was still able to like walk and drive at that time. And so, you know, still able to work, do merchandising. But um, you know, it just it just sucks because that diagnosis just like shut everything down. And it's like to look back to see how far I've come where now it's like I can't even walk, I'm in a wheelchair full time, and it's like, wow, this is just to show you never know. You can become disabil disabled and in any moment, any day. And it's like how much I took for granted as an able-body person. So I just wanted to share that part. But what inspired me to Girls Chronically Rock is I'm like, you know what? I wanted to always own my own business, I wanted to have something clothing, and I wanted to something I felt at that time to connect and inspire and motivate others in the disability community. So I was like, what about some t-shirts? So, because I love t-shirts, I love like graphic tees, like I'm always cutting them up or like paste, um, paste uh spray painting them, or like putting like different pins in them. So I was like, what about like creating? I didn't know exactly what I wanted the name to be, but I knew I want the word chronically in it, just for chronic illnesses that are chronic, like you know, that was just what I was thinking at that time. So then I just thought one night, girls chronically rock, and I liked the way it flowed, I like the way it sounded, and I went with it from there, and then I had um someone from I went to high school with help me with my uh website because I am so not tech savvy, and so I had somebody help me with the website and just kind of built from there. But I must say I didn't think it would get the attraction that it did. And you know, that makes me excited about that. Like, you know, even when um Jennifer wanted me to be on her book, and I'm like, really me? Like, you want to interview me? So, you know, it's like it's it's so um lovely to see that some people still know, you know, girls chronically rock, you know, although you know, I've been taking like a uh back a step back, you know, with due to like health issues and body's very fatigued, but you know, I'm happy to say, like, I built Girls Chronically Rock and I felt, you know, and I hope I motivate others in the disability community. That's why I started a Facebook group, um, GCR Um Entrepreneurs and Disabled. Because I'm like, I want others to know, like, you can do this. Like, yeah, we have a disability. I know it's hard on days that we can't control, but you got this, you know what I mean? Like, you can do if you're even selling painting, doing little things like you can make your own money. Because you know, the government already holds us hostage already. But then I also have another group on GCR accessible housing, where something I'm advocating for, especially in my city of Cambridge, because I want disabled housing dedicated to us. So that's like what I'm working on more now. Of I'm just like, you know, it can be done. I want a disabled housing with everyone has a two-bedroom, wide rooms, and then also I want a nurse and mental health therapist on site. So that has really been like the focus right now of like GCR accessible housing. I've been sending emails to like realtors, investors, because I'm like, we need this. There's nothing like, you know, like, yes, your family and friends may understand your disability or you know, try compassion, but there's nothing like talking and being around your own people. Because we get it at the end of the day. We're living in the the body, and so I think that would be so cool if we had a building for us by us.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Absolutely. So, Keisha, what would you say to someone who may allow their disability or chronic illness to find the person who they think they are?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Um, I would say, see, it's such a tough um question for me because I know in the beginning I was in denial. You could not tell me I had muscular dystrophy. It's like, although like the doctor told me that we the testing is confirmed, I'm just like, no, I think you know, next time I go to the appointment, she's gonna say, Oh, we got your test results mixed up. So I get it. So it's not like sometimes I'm not like, oh yeah, girl, you gotta get through it and etc. Because we all deal with it in a different way. Like me, I was in denial. Some people may get a diagnosis and start videotaping it and you know, expressing themselves, and that's dope. You know, I think that's awesome. But you know, like everybody's the same. And so it took a while. Like when I wrote my first blog about my diagnosis, it's like it took me as I was writing and saying it out loud, like, oh wow, I got muscular dystrophy. That's crazy. So it was just interesting that it took me to write that blog that I first kind of shared everything like with friends on Facebook, and it was like, oh wow, I I never knew. But you know, it can be a lot, but I would say just all you can do is take each day at a time. I would say connect with others in the disability community. What I say, even to this day, is what inspired me is you know, Gillian McCardo, the fashion model, and she has muscular dystrophy like me. So one day I like just saw her on like the website. I was like, oh my gosh, she has muscular dystrophy like me. Like it just made me feel like awesome. Like, look in this, she's a fashion model. She's you know, she got her clothing all together, like she just looked fashionable and beautiful. And so that was another person I like always remember from the beginning, early stages. Like, she really inspired me because I'm like, she's dope.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Can I add to what Keisha just said?

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Sure, and then I got a question for you.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Sure. Because I think like I talked about not like hiding my disability, and then when it couldn't be hidden anymore, I was a person who didn't really have a community of other people with disabilities. So suddenly my friends, my family, my colleagues, I have this experience that they can't relate to. And so I just wanted to add to what Keisha said about community. Like making friends with other people in the disability community has been immensely helpful for me to keep my sense of self, keep my sanity, stay positive. And that doesn't mean that we get together and we like complain about our disabilities. No, quite the contrary. We don't have to talk about it. We just know what it's like to live with a disability. And we get together and we're super positive and we enjoy our time together and we do the typical things that any group of friends would do, dinner and events and movies and concerts and things like that. Um, but just having people who I don't even like that I can talk to about it, but I don't even need to talk to them about it because they just understand what my day-to-day challenges might look like has been really, really positive for me, as has been doing the book. Like I got to know 30 people that I hadn't known before. They became my friends, they became my community. Um, and I'm so appreciative of Keisha's participation and the participation of the other people in the book. Like the gift was mine. I was getting the gift, right? I was getting this community that I hadn't had before. I was learning about how to be a person with a disability navigating the world.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Well, I know you also talk about beginning with belonging. So, what does belonging look like for people with disabilities versus just simply being included?

SPEAKER_02 14:52

So there's something that one of the people in the book, this gentleman named Punit, when we were talking about this topic and what it is to live with a disability, he said belonging for him is when he knows that he was expected there and wanted there. So that means that people thought about him before he even arrived. And they cared about creating spaces where he felt not only that he could access them, because access looks different for everybody, right? For some people, it's a ramp or an elevator, and for other people, it's a room that is not like super loud or has harsh lighting, right? All these different things that make the room physically accessible. Um, that's the first step. The real sense of belonging is so I had somebody recently tell me that they came into a space that was physically accessible for them, and they sat down at a table and nobody spoke to them. So that person was describing to me something that was technically accessible to them, but a space in which they didn't feel like they belonged. So they felt like they looked different, they moved differently than the other people in the room, they had different access needs. And even though some of those were met, they didn't feel like they belonged because the people didn't seem interested in them being there. And I think that's kind of what Poonit was getting at when he said I was expected and I was wanted, right? People reached out to him, made him feel comfortable, made him feel a part of that group, made him feel welcome at that event and that they wanted him there. And I think that's the difference for me. Like belonging is this thing that happens after all of the access needs are met, and the people who are creating this event and participating in this event are eagerly embracing the person with a disability who shows up. And I think that's true even for people without disabilities. Like, you want to feel like you're wanted in spaces that you participate in.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Or Keisha, as a um motivational speaker, entrepreneur, and disability advocate, what barriers have you had to overcome that you might not have even that people with disabilities might not even realize even exist?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Um, I would say for me, barriers that I guess for me, because I was born able-body and diagnosed at like my early, you know, 20s and going to college, it's like I realized for me of how much I took for granted as, you know, just being now a disabled person and realizing you can be disabled at any time. But yeah, I just feel like as far as also barriers, I just feel like, and back to the question you also asked Jennifer to touch on that, it's just like I feel like us in the disability community need our own, like we need to live in our own little world. Because I feel like that's why I feel like I would actually belong, and that we will belong. It's like nobody understands us and gets us, like how the barrier is dealing with insurances, the caregivers, everything. But, you know, special challenges, you know, this is something I've been advocating for. So I just feel like that's a barrier. But I think all of us, I can't even say something the disability may not know of that I know. Because if anything, I learned from them, you know. So I feel like I love, you know, supporting the disability support groups on Instagram, Facebook. So I feel like I honestly learned from them where I'm like, wow, like this person has been dealing with this since they were born, and I can only imagine what that must have felt like. And, you know, so I feel like I learned something each and every day about the disability community and about my own body as well, living with muscular dystrophy. But I I honestly can't, I feel like I learned so much from them. So I can't even say about it's the same, you know, accessibility, requesting housing, going to a restaurant where they say it's accessible, but they have a few stairs. Like, it's crazy, it's exhausting. That's why I'm like, we need our own world, we need we need our own president, everything, because only us gets it.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Well, Jennifer, I know that your book doesn't just simply tell people's stories. Each profile has a portrait and an original poem. So talk about that and why you felt like it was important to express, tell people's stories through multiple forms of expression.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah, I think like sort of at the basic level, the reason that I included a variety of different elements is I think that people connect with different things in different ways, right? So it didn't feel like telling someone's story would be complete without their portrait, right? You want to see who it is that you're reading about. You want to have an understanding of that, who that person is, um, how they present themselves, what you know, sense of them you can get. Like Keisha's picture is so beautiful, and it's in her space with Girls Chronically Rock, and you see how colorful and beautiful she is, and her environment is and what she wears and how she presents herself. So you get a real good sense of her through that portrait. Um, and then the narrative biography was really where I started I just want to tell people's stories. How did, you know, what has your life been like? What have you done? What has been challenging? What are your accomplishments? Um, who are the people that you connect with and surround yourself with? And then the poetry piece actually kind of came last. Um I found this organization called the Good Listening Project. And I was like intrigued by it, a little bit unsure of how it would be impactful, but it's an organization that works mostly in the healthcare space to train people to be listener poets. And then the listener poets, after they're trained, they um many of them work in hospitals and cancer care centers and VA centers and work with medical students in medical schools to give people who are in the healthcare industry space to talk about some of the things that they're taking on that are challenging, right? So it could be a family member of somebody who's ill, it could be the person who's ill, it could be the doctor or the nurse, staff people who are working on them, the medical students, as I said. Um and and I went into it a little bit like, let's see how this is. And it was so amazing because when you give people space to share something that's on their mind or in their heart, and then you give them something that you've written for them and about them, it's this gift. And like I did one of my practicum conversations with an ER doctor who said that he never gets to have conversations like these where I asked him about his work. Because he doesn't take his work home from an emergency room that's way too intense to share with his family. And it's often just too busy for him to process what he's experiencing with his colleagues. So for him, that moment to talk about something that he was experiencing was really valuable to him. And so I decided to bring the poetry piece into this project, the book, but I did the focus a little bit differently. So the portrait was really a collaboration between the person whose portrait was being taken and Natalie Brescia, who's the photographer for this project, who is wonderful and sensitive to people's, you know, comfort and wanting them to be feel safe with this and also encouraging them to be open and vulnerable in the ways that they present themselves photographically. So she was great. And then the poetry, the poems I decided would be focused very specifically on the unique aspect of living with a disability for each individual person. So every poem is different, and every poem conversation started with me saying something like, Tell me what it is to live with your disability, or do you think of yourself as a person with a disability? How does a disability impact your day-to-day life? Um, how does it make you think of yourself? How does it make others think of you? So it's really focused on their disability. And then I built each person's poem around something that I felt was unique that came from that conversation. Um, and again, I think that people, when they read the book, like some people are gonna really latch on to the narrative biographies and enjoy reading those, and other people are gonna appreciate the portraits, be able to see another sort of aspect or element of the person's personality, and other people are gonna really gravitate towards the poems that speak specifically about living with a disability. And I hope as a whole that like people can then get a really good sense of each person that they're reading about. And as I said before, feel like, you know, as Keisha was saying, like, we need our own president, we need our own country, we need our own communities. Um, I hope that part of what this book does is help people who don't have disabilities understand how important it is for people with disabilities to be supported in um having what they need to live rich, independent lives, and that people then become allies and advocates. Um, and frankly, even like, you know, my experience as a person with a disability was limited to my mobility disability. I learned so much more about other disabilities and other experiences that disabled people have. And I'm a much better friend, I'm a much better ally, I'm a much better advocate because I learned about disabilities different than my own. Um, and so even people who have disabilities can learn from reading these profiles and these stories. Thank you for that question.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

Well, that's next question is for both of you. Both of you can answer it. What is one misconception about people with disabilities that you wish would be eliminated?

SPEAKER_01 26:40

That that's a funny one that you asked that because I just feel like they feel like people with disabilities, we don't date, we're not like intimate, we're not like we don't go outside, we don't have fun, we don't have friends. It's like the I can go on and on, but that was the first thing when you said that question, where they're like, oh how you know this person can have sex in a wheelchair or such and such, and it's like it's like that it's possible, you know. I mean, like you don't know until you're in that situation, but we're just like everybody else, we're just different, and we need certain accommodations, etc. But that that was the first thing that came to my mind when you asked that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

And I and I would Curtis, I would add to that too, like um there's this sense from people who are not disabled, I think often that mostly we're a group of people who need help, and I think we need some help, but I think our capacity is limitless. And if we were able to have some of our sort of basic access needs met, basic living needs met, we are a huge group of capable, creative, um, smart, loving, like powerful people. And I don't think that that's the way that we're often seen from outside the disability community. But I I know it's true. Like, you know, the 30 people I talk to is just a sampling, but all of those 30 people are doing amazing, wonderful things and want to continue to do that, want to be able to do that. Um, and what people need in order to to contribute and participate is really ultimately um doable and minor. And I don't I don't mean to minimize it to say minor, but it's like help me with some basic things and then allow me to do my thing and contribute and be able to participate. There's so much capacity within the disability community, so much richness.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Well, Keisha, I know that uh confidence is hard to build when society focuses on stuff that you supposedly can't do, but talk about how you were able to build your confidence and focus on the things that you can do.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Um, yeah, I would say, you know, I'm still like, you know, not gonna say, oh yeah, I'm 100%. We we all have our days, you know, where it's like, oh, we may not like the way we look or the way we our feels, but you know, it's just kind of like I kind of realize at this point I have no choice but to deal with what's going on. It's not like where some able-bodied people can think like we can tell our disability to just go and come back maybe next week. Like, and I mean that even with my caregivers, I think that, but you know, it's like this is something that happens to us. We didn't ask for it. This is something that came on to us, and we just got to deal with it each day at a time, as best as we can. You know, as much as I like to say, like, yeah, I want to go back to the beginning stages, not even saying, Oh, take away the muscular dystrophy, because I feel like that's what made me who me are um who I am, like, you know, how I took life for granted, appreciate things much more, you know, but like just the early stages, but it's just like certain things that I feel like some people would never get, with, you know, we got to deal with insurances, we got to make sure they approve this, approve that. And it's just really, really exhausting. But I would say that to build that confidence, you know, kind of like I said, that goes back to the connection of dealing with other people in the disability community. Because I feel like that's what helped me. I'm like, look at her, she's doing her thing, she's in a wheelchair or she's dating, she's in school. You know, I feel like that's where that confidence comes from, of back to the comment I made earlier about um Julia Mercado, where I kind of feel like she gave me that confidence, you know. But I feel like each day it could be different. One day I'm like super energized, I'm like, yeah, like whatever. But then the next day I'm just like, oh, here goes just another day. I gotta sit here in this wheelchair and you know, deal with these caregivers. It's like it could be up and down. So I feel like we all deal with things differently. But there's some out there that, you know, I feel like I can even learn from of watching and seeing their confidence where I'm like, oh, like, you know, look at her, look at them. But um, yeah, I would say that for me.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Well, tell us about any upcoming projects that both of you are working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Um I would say for me, I like I mentioned earlier about the GCR accessible housing. That's something I'm really truly passionate about right now. I got like um, you know, a lot of people in the group right now trying to get recognition for the mayor, like the governor, whoever, because it's time we have our own housing, um, things like that. But I would say continue to look out for Girls Chronically Rock. The clothing may be on hold for now, but I have so much more under the Girls Chronically Rock umbrella that I want to do, um, you know, that I hope to dream and prosper. But it's just, you know, gonna take time. And you know, what's in the disability community? We don't know what our body's gonna do or fail the next day or within the next hour. We just have to take it day by day. But otherwise than that, like I said, I'm just taking it day by day. But I just have so many ideas I want to fulfill. It's just a matter of getting the money. But yeah, that's all I have for now. You're writing and blogging too, right? Um, yes, I do blog um on my website. Um, but you know, hopefully just getting my story out there. I'm starting to open up more, like express like, you know, how I'm feeling, how I missed the early stages, what it's like living with muscular dystrophy. So, yeah, Jennifer, thank you. But yeah, I have been posting some blogs and trying to get back and sending out like a newsletter. So please subscribe to um my newsletter. It's girls chronicallyrock at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

And what's your website before?

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Oh, my website is girlschronicallyrock.com.com. That's where you can check out my clothing, t-shirts, adaptive swimwear, and my blog post and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Okay, and Jennifer, what are you working on?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

So, can I actually go back just for a second to something that you asked Keisha about like role models and how does she have a confidence? And I think one of the things that when she was talking, I was thinking about was when the world makes it difficult for people with disabilities to be out, right? They need the caregivers, they need the support, they need the accessibility to get up and out of their homes, many of us, and into the community and and be able to do our things and be visible. Um it makes it harder for us to see each other. It makes it harder for um non-disabled people to see the capacity and the and the strength and the abilities that people with disabilities have. And I think that's part of like that critical need to ensure that we have our basic needs met so that we can be in the community because we are role models for each other. And, you know, you can become disabled at any point in time, right? Whether it's in aging or an accident or an illness. So the idea that we normalize disability and we recognize it as something that's part of living, and we also find ways to support people with disabilities to participate as fully as possible is so important, right? That's the way that, like, oh, I can see that person who is like me out there doing something that I want to do. That motivates me to continue on, to have the confidence, to feel good about putting the effort and energy into pursuing something because we see that it's possible. So I think it's just really important for those basic needs to be met so that we can be participating as fully as we're able to. Um, and for many of us, that's very fully, right? So, like Keisha, I've seen pursuing the things that she's passionate about and that she loves and you know, running her own businesses. Um just it's it's very impressive to me. And it's something that, you know, she has a right to be supported and being able to pursue. Um, so I just wanted to say that because I think she's great. And um, I think it's just important for us to have not have to fight, you know, you said the medical needs, the bills, the applications, all that paperwork, all the things that the world kind of makes it hard for us to get that we do need in order to live. Um so projects that I'm working on, I'll just pivot to that. Um, really, this book, C S Know Us Profiles of Disability, um, is available now for pre-order at my website, Jennifer Chasman Brown. Chasman is C-H-A-S-S-M-A-N. Brown has an E on the end, B-R-O-W-N-E. Um, you can buy it there, you can buy it on Amazon, you can buy it on Barnes and Noble. Um, I am working on another poetry book, but that's just my own sort of tangential work. I can continue to be a disability advocate and educator, so I'm always open to doing training sessions. Um, but really the book has been what I've been working on for the last few years. It is my baby, and it's available very soon, October 6th. Um, although you can pre-order it right now on all those places I mentioned. Um, and then I'm gonna be in Santa Barbara on October 26th at Chaucer's Books doing a reading and a signing. I have a couple online um readings coming up where I'll be selling the book and talking about the book as well, and then hopefully in the spring back east to meet people in person and do some readings and signings out there. I would love that. Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Okay, well um let's close out with this last question for the both of you. Um, what what do you hope uh people take away from this conversation about inclusion, belonging, and disability? You know, something you will want people to take away from this message. Your final thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 37:36

Um, I would say I want them to take away that uh if you are out there with a disability, chronic illness, whatever you may address yourself, like it's possible to do things. It's possible to own your own business, it's possible to do this and that, don't matter what anybody else says. It's possible. And I would say if you are out there with the disability, connect with others that are dealing with the same thing that you're dealing with. Because they're the only ones that are gonna get it. Not like saying some friends can't, but it's just a difference of talking and connecting with someone who actually gets it. And I hope they just take away that, yeah, it's possible. Um, we need to advocate more. We need our own like city. Like I said, we need our own president, but yeah, I'm dreaming big, but sometimes I just dream of that at night, and I'm like, that is the only way we're gonna get what we want. So I just want to add that. But yeah, I hope that they enjoy the conversation. They check out both me and Jennifer's website, they order the book, and yeah, and just have fun on listening to the episode.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

And I would again just add on to what Keisha said like the only way that we're gonna get what we want and what we need is to push things forward so that we are really seen as people who are participating fully in our communities. And so while that is something that people with disabilities are working for and working towards, we also need our able-bodied allies. So I think, you know, the the reason that I called the book See Us, Know Us, is really about like start looking at the people in your community who are people with disabilities and looking at them as people, recognize what their gifts and their capacities are, recognize what their needs are, help them to help them. I don't even mean them specifically, but help help by making different regulations and laws and policies that benefit people with disabilities and enable them to be more included in the world around them, that break down some of the barriers and create better systems and policies. Um, really see us. We are amazing human beings, um, with, as I've said before, like so much capacity and so many gifts. Please don't just pigeonhole a person with a disability as a person with a disability who is not capable or who is significantly different than you. Mostly we're not.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Absolutely, ladies and gentlemen. Girls Chronically Rock.com for Keisha and Jennifer Chasmine Brown with an E for Jennifer. JenniferCasm Brown with an e.com. Girlschronicallyrock.com. Please be sure to check out both their websites, support them, join Keisha's Facebook groups, and pick up that book on October 6th. Jennifer, follow rate review, share this episode to as many people as possible. If you know you or someone, you know, you know somebody that has a disability, share this episode too, to them. Any caregivers, any, any advocates, anything like that. And also, to keep up with all things living the dream, please visit www.curveball337.com. If you haven't done so, subscribe to the newsletter, follow us, leave us a review. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And Jennifer and Keisha, thank you for all that you do for the disability world and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Thank you for having us. I'm I appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much, Curtis.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.