Navigating the Hidden Job Market: Rick Denius on Mastering HR and Career Success

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Living the Dream podcast with Curveball. If you believe, you can achieve.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today's guest is the founder of the HR Search Company. It is a fast-growing nationwide HR executive search, and his name is Rick Dinius. Rick has 25 years of HR corporate leadership, including 18 years working at CNN in Atlanta. He is the go-to person to talk about job search resumes, hitting the markets, hiring, and anything you want to know about job search and HR, Rick is the man. So we're going to be talking to him about that and everything that he's up to and gonna be up to. So Rick, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Thank you so much for having me, Curtis.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Sure thing. Thank you. Um well so I am Rick Dennis. I live and work in Atlanta, Georgia. About nine years ago, I founded an executive search firm that focuses on finding good HR people. We help companies find and hire the best. HR is one of those things that is uh, you know, every company has it. And so um that's about as deep as our niche goes. Um I worked, you as like you said, at CNN here in Atlanta for about 18 years in varying roles in the human resources department. Actually, started in the newsroom, had a pretty uh interesting ride there um and learned a ton. It was a very sophisticated corporate entity, and I got to work uh uh with some of the best and brightest in the business. And um so I spend my days uh working with senior leaders in companies and trying to find them good folks uh to hire. Uh a lot of what we do is confidential search. So those are the jobs that you never really see posted. Um maybe somebody's getting ahead of a reorganization or um uh they just need to hire somebody without all the noise that comes with a public search. So we've got a really deep network of really smart, capable HR leaders. And uh I have developed uh uh a little bit of a subject matter expertise in all things related to job search, not just HR. Uh what I'm gonna talk about is probably relevant to people uh in any industry in any role um about how to get your resume on top of the pile. Uh we might touch on uh uh uh the whole process. So um looking forward to uh looking forward to talking with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yeah, let's uh touch on that question. You know, I'm I'm sure uh my listeners out there, some of them are searching for jobs. So uh yeah, let's talk about that, getting that resume on top of the pile because uh a lot of it we know goes into file 13.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Exactly, exactly. Into the round file, as they say. Yeah, so I when I talk about it, I like to I like to talk about uh sort of backing it up a little bit and really trying to get an understanding on why companies even post jobs. Um, you know, that's that's a question I ask people a lot is you know, you know, you know, why why would a company post a job? And you know, people say, oh, it's uh uh they you know they need to replace somebody, they need to get you know a certain amount of jobs done, but work done. But at the end of the day, what it comes down to is there's a certain set of problems that can only be solved by hiring somebody new. Now, human capital and payroll expense is the biggest expense for any company. So any smart CEO wants to keep that as controlled as possible. So companies just don't hire people to hire people. Before they hire or they post a job, you better believe they looked internally to think about, you know, can can can we move this work around to somebody that's already here? Uh, do we really need six accountants or can we get along with five? Um and when they come to that decision where it's like, you know what, we've got the work, we've got some issues and some problems to solve. And the only way we can solve it is to post a job there, and then the job becomes a reality. So, what does that mean for a job seeker? It means you've got to focus on the problem that led them to post the job in the first place. Nobody reads your resume in a vacuum. No one's gonna be uh looking at your uh your info and uh thinking, oh, this person would be great. Let's get them on board. No, that there's a very certain set, a very narrow set of challenges and problems that need to be solved. And so what that means for somebody that's looking for a role is you've got to make yourself the person that is uniquely suited and qualified to solve the unique set of challenges that led them to post the job in the first place. You can't take your eye off of that. It's not about you, it's about them. They've got the job, they've got the money to pay you. And so you've got to figure out why is the job available? What what what business pressures are there that that led them to post this and go in with that mindset as opposed to throwing a resume at uh 50 jobs at a rope and sort of you know waiting for a response?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Well, let's talk about the impact of AI on HR, you know. Uh tell us about that and how it has affected uh HR.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, as you know, AI is affecting everything, everybody. It's coming, it's already here. People are trying to figure it out. Is there a lot of hype? Uh is it gonna change things? Absolutely. You know, um the issue isn't that you know technology is gonna change things because that's gonna happen, that's always happened. Um uh the technology is continuing to evolve and impacting the the job market. The for for a company that's trying to think about ways to adopt AI, you've really got to think about your leadership. And your leadership has to set the table to make sure that things are in place to adopt the technology. The technology is not going to come in and solve all of your problems. You have to you have to have smart people who understand processes that can be impacted and improved by by auto by by automation. But um AI is one of these things that is it's just the next thing. It's gonna be a big, big, big change. Uh, I think a lot of the tactical jobs, I'm already seeing this. I'm seeing it with the technology companies, mass layoffs, um, you know, processes that took you know a team of 10 and six weeks that you can get done with a team of two and four hours. I mean, it it just makes sense to to go in that direction. And the impact on human capital and layoffs is is real. You know, uh so so so it's coming, but it's not it, it's not gonna affect every company and every individually the same. Uh companies with lots of resources. I I like to I like to use an analogy, you know, some companies can afford a Ferrari and some can afford a pickup truck. And so uh, you know, they might be existing in the same market. Um, you know, some are gonna be moving a lot faster with a lot more resources and adopting this technology, um, probably being more efficient and making more money. But there's always gonna be industries that AI is going to hit a certain point where uh you're not gonna be able to do everything with it. Um, it's a fascinating topic. Uh, and I think that uh it it it's all about how companies are are the leadership of companies are setting up uh uh uh their internal house to prepare for it.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

We'll talk about the hidden hidden job market. What what is the hidden job market and how do people tap into it?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Yes, the hidden job market. That's one of my favorite topics. The hidden job market is where I spend a lot of my time, Curtis. Hidden job market is what I talked about in my introduction, where oftentimes uh CEO or a senior leader in a company will engage our firm uh for a search that they don't want to post on their website. Uh they don't want uh they you know they want to keep it uh they want to keep it confidential. A lot of reasons they might want to do that, and not all of them are nefarious. Uh, you might be getting ahead of a of a big reorganization. You might look around internally and say, you know, there's no successors for this job that we have here. So we're gonna have to go to market, but we don't want to deal with all the noise. I posted a job for a VP of HR last fall on LinkedIn. Um, and I got 2,500 resumes in two days. What am I gonna do with 2,500 resumes in two days? So I so I quickly put the I pulled the posting uh and got back to all 2500 with a big message that said, hey, look, this was pretty overwhelming. I'm gonna do my best to look here. Thanks for your interest in this role. The hidden job market is where executive search firms, search firms like mine operate, where we proactively tap into our network. I've been doing this for nine years. We've got a super deep network of people, especially in the HR, well, only in the HR channel, for all the different roles, whether it's a benefits or it's payroll or it's HR business partners or what it whatever it might be. These firms, the the you know, firms that are bigger than ours and ours, uh, you know, when a job comes in, the first place we go is to our network of people that we have. So we're not uh, you know, going out there and just you know looking at uh the the 2,500 people that raise their hand. We already have relationships with people that might be happy where they are now, but ready for a promotion. Maybe there's not a lot of growth in their organization. So we have a stable, a vetted, I call it a deep talent pool of folks who are already already in our system and in my mind and in my network. So that when someone calls me up and says, Rick, we need a uh you know, uh ahead of payroll. Um our our our person's leaving and we don't have anybody internally and we need to move quickly. Um, I was able, you know, I'm able to turn things around where searches might take uh six six weeks, eight weeks, ten weeks to execute. When you get a good firm uh early on and you're engaged, things can move really quickly. We filled a role in two weeks, um, a really big role. We had uh and just pulling from our existing network um of folks. Not to say that I don't spend a lot of my time out on LinkedIn and some of the other other platforms searching for people proactively. Uh, you know, these these firms pay LinkedIn, you know, tens of thousands of dollars for access to searching folks. Um uh and so you know, going out and getting a very clear set of uh parameters, keyword searches, run location, on uh certain skills and abilities. At the senior level, the the the types of roles that we work with, it's pretty apparent pretty quickly on a LinkedIn profile if or not the person's got the experience. Then comes the conversation, the interview with me and my team and the assessment that we do with folks. Um that's where things really get a little uh a little interesting in the process. I mean, everybody on LinkedIn looks great at their jobs, you know. If you look at a LinkedIn profile, it's like everybody, you know, optimizes it. But once you start talking to somebody, that's where character comes into play. And frankly, I I and other executive recruiters get paid to be good judges of character. And it's the small things. It's you know, are you are you responsive? Are you cool with last-minute schedule changes? Do you follow up quickly? Um, do you do what you say you're gonna do? Or do you text me six times after I told you I would circle back with you? These are the little signals that really good people quietly take themselves out of this, uh just out of the running and they don't even know it. Um, these are all things that happen in the hidden job market. So the the question a lot of people have for me is well, you know, how do I crack into that? You know, how how do I how do I move from being this reactive job responder to to being a an active player in the hidden job market? And it really comes down to activating your army of net uh what do I say, activating your army of advocates? You know, there's people that you've worked with in your career who know who you are, they know your brand. Um, you probably, if you're like most people in the world, you've worked at if you're if you're up at the senior level, you might have worked for five or six different places. You know, everywhere you've been, you've worked with folks who are now working in other companies. So it's those people are the ones that you need to reach out to, and not just when you're looking to find a new job. You know, it's really important, you know, to keep in touch with folks, especially the people who are in positions of authority that have hiring ability. I tell people this story where to kind of kind of bring it all home. It's uh tomorrow somebody, well, tomorrow's Saturday, but next week someone's gonna walk into a to their boss's office and say, look, uh uh my spouse has moved into the West Coast and here's my two weeks' notice. And that person, you know, uh, was doing a really critical role. The the boss is like, oh my God, what am I gonna do now? Um, it's gonna take me forever to replace this person if I can even do it. There's no internal successors. What are we gonna do? So the boss goes to the leadership team and announces a person's departure. In that meeting, someone stands up and says, You have to look at Joe Billingsley. I worked with Joe five years ago. He called me up a few days ago and told me that he's available and looking for just this type of opportunity. You need to make yourself Joe Billingsley. And what Joe Billingsley did well is he he kept in touch with folks and let them know that, hey, if something were to come available, keep me in mind. And so that's how people can really, really take advantage of the hidden job market to get their next career. All these these roles are filled um either through a firm or through referrals or networking. Sometimes they are filled, the senior level roles are filled through job postings, uh, internal job postings, someone will apply for a role. But more often than not, it's gonna be through uh just knowing who good people are or engaging a firm to tell you who the good people are.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Well, I know you talk a lot about hacking the job application process. So how someone hack the job application process?

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah, you absolutely can. And and I think when I started talking about this two or three years ago, it was kind of a, you know, everybody I talked to about it was like, hey, that makes a lot of sense. Now it's getting to the point where it's it's it's almost uh a known, a known thing. And and and here it is when when you see a role posted, a lot of people will I mean let me take a step back. A lot of people will put their resume together, their LinkedIn profile, and they'll be like, you know, this is great. And they might pay somebody a couple hundred bucks to make a great resume. And then that's the resume that they shuffle around. That version, they treat it like the Declaration of Independence or some great document. Um the truth is, if you want to hack the process, you've got to be really malleable with the tools that you use to get yourself an interview. A resume is nothing more than a tool that you use to get yourself an interview, full stop. Because once the interview process starts, the resume is not that important anymore, to be honest. Um the resume opens the door, and then the interview is where you sell yourself and move through the process. So what I so nowadays, as you know, jumping forward from three years ago, you know, you can put a job, and I think most people do this these days, and this is something that's pretty new for 2026. People are starting to realize you can do this type of thing. Take a job description, put it into Chat GPT, um, put whatever version of your resume next to it and say, hey, make me a resume that's tailored to this job. Um then recruiters and hiring managers, as they're looking at resumes, are thinking, gosh, you know, this person's got everything we're looking for, um, because your resume was generated from the job description. That's happening more and more and more. And so that's why it's critical for folks to, you know, not necessarily misrepresent themselves in what they've done, but there's a way for you to tell your story in a certain context to tie yourself back to that first thing I was talking about, to be the person that is uniquely situated to solve the set of problems that that led them to solve the post the job in the first place. Because if you look at a job description, you know, most of them are written pretty carefully. And you can kind of decode, well, what's going on here? What do they really need in their industry or their location or or you know, do some research on the company and see what kind of financial headwinds they're having. Um, you know, be conversant, go deep, do your research, um, and and and and and be ready to tell your story uh uh that that will set yourself apart as somebody who who who knows what they're talking about in the context of the job that's open under the job that they're going for.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Well, why is it so hard for people over 40 to get a new job?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Oh, that's a great question. Because and I'll tell you why, because ageism is really the only bias that's out there that is probably the most prevalent uh bias that that companies get away with uh these days. I can tell you uh uh you know there's there's there's rules and there's laws, the equal opportunity um uh in the EEOC, and you know, there's certain things you can ask in resumes and not, and it's illegal to discriminate against people, uh, but it's pretty specific. You know, they outline, I think it's somewhere between eight and twelve things, whether it's race or uh uh sexual orientation, um uh sex, what whatever it might be. Um, and um, but ageism is on there, and ageism starts when you're 40 and up. Um, but it's very quiet. It's very quiet, these people. So, you know, with LinkedIn, you've got a photo right there. So it's pretty easy to look at somebody and say, eh, you know, maybe this person has um, you know, doesn't have as many years left in their career. You know, we're human beings and we make judgments and we have biases going in. A lot of the biases are unconscious bias. And unfortunately, ageism is one of them in the job in the job search. But there's things you can do. There's things you can do if you're over 40, um, that a lot of people are doing, and a lot of it, you know, if if if if you're smart about it, I tell people that you know, age is your unfair advantage because you've seen a lot of things. And and and and if if somebody were to come and say, well, this person uh probably won't be able to adopt a technology, I'd I'd push back and say, well, hey, we're the generation that uh you know that that that saw you know the internet come into play, and you know, you know, then BlackBerries, you know, and then you know, for every iteration, whatever the latest thing was technology-wise, we figured it out, and not only that, we you know, we we got through it. And so um with wisdom and time um comes a lot of power. And so, you know, turning that on its head a bit, there's things you can do with your resume and your LinkedIn profile, um, you know, taking years of graduation off, you know, going back, you know, 15, maybe capital at 20 years um of experience. And then I I see a lot of times what people will do is they'll, you know, they'll go back 10, 12 years with their their employers. And if they started working in the 90s, um, you know, they'll say previous um uh previous experience includes these companies, right? So we're not necessarily focused on the past, we're focused on On what have you done for me lately? I would encourage anybody who is in the job market, you know, 40 plus, 50 plus, 60 plus, to, you know, to look into strategies, because there are some really good strategies out there that can get ahead of this and can keep them competitive in the job market. I can tell you a couple jobs this year that we filled with folks that were 60 plus. Um and just and and and just because they, you know, they have a ton of uh horsepower and a lot of gas left in the tank that can combat some of this um, you know, some of the stuff that's happening around age ageism and bias.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Well, is human resources for the employee or the employer?

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Oh, that's a great question. You know, is human resources for the employee or for the employer? I it's you know, it's an interesting mix, and that's a great question. You that that that comes up. Um the the answer is HR exists to protect the interests of the company. Full stop. You know, companies uh reach a certain size, usually maybe 200 employees as they're growing, and they realize that they can't get away with an office manager anymore, they need to hire an HR person. Um, an HR person um uh or the HR function um uh exists to like any company, any company is is engineered to make as much money as possible for the shareholders and for the and for the people running the ship. So if they're gonna invest in uh a function, it's not gonna be to you know plan parties or to um uh you know be a shoulder to cry on for employees. You know, that's part of the role. But if someone were to ask me, does HR exist for the company or does it exist for the employer, I would say it exists for the company. Now, for the company to do well, you need to have employees who are engaged. You have to create a culture where people want to come to work, or else you're not gonna, you know, it's retention is gonna go out the window and you're always gonna have a revolving door of people coming uh and leaving, which can really, really impact your ability to to make money as a company. So in that sense, um HR is an advocate for the employee and the employee experience. But um it's an interesting question, and it's one that you know a lot of people think uh, you know, HR is here for me. And to a certain degree, they are, if it uh if it is a uh um if it's if it's uh looking through the lens of we want to make this a great place to work.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Well, let's talk about uh we talked about resumes, so let's talk about cover letters. Uh what's your opinion on cover letters?

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Oh, cover letters are important. Cover letters are really important, and a lot of people overlook the cover letter. A lot of people, Curtis, a lot of people overlook the cover letter and the thank you note these days. Um cover letter is is is something that uh not everybody reads. Um oftentimes they'll only ask for a resume when you're applying for a role. But the cover letter is not a, it's it, it goes back to what I was saying about people who create a resume and and treat it as a sacrosanct document. Uh the cover letter needs to be fluid, it needs to be uh concise, it needs to be focused on the problems that the company has that they're trying to solve by hiring this person, and then closing it with, I'm the person that can do it, and here's why. Um it's a really powerful weapon that you can use as you're as you're going through the job search process, um submit the resume, and and and maybe even releasing the the binds of calling it a cover letter. It's more of a narrative that you can you that you can put into play in a in an interview that that that ties things down, but you've got to keep clear on on what's really at the core of this entire process. And that is that there's a problem that they're trying to solve, and they're trying to solve it by hiring somebody, and they're looking, and they're looking at a lot of different people. So, how do you stand out in the crowd is if you can tie yourself to that problem with solutions. And on that, I'll also mention one thing about interviewing, and and maybe um we were gonna get to this, but um, while I'm thinking about it, you know, interviewing you is is is is is fraught with theater. Uh as the candidate, you you're you're you it seems like you're like in a play and um everybody knows the lines, and then uh the the candidate comes in and and and needs to perform needs to perform because you don't know uh uh you know what's going on, uh uh the inner dynamics of the hiring panel. Um but in an interview the the how I how I prep people and how I coach people is just come up with two or three really solid examples, stories. People love to hear stories, um uh and and and have those stories tie back into the problem that led them to post the job in the first place. And if you can do that, uh you you'll have their attention, as opposed to an interview where there's a list of 10 questions and everybody's kind of saying the same thing. If you can, if if you can, if you can set yourself apart as the person who is talking in their language, and um by that I mean talking about uh the the the pressures and the problems and the opportunities that led them to post the job in the first place, you'll go far and probably end up getting an offer.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Well, what do you feel is going to be the impact of the new and upcoming regulations on the workforce?

SPEAKER_02 29:33

The new and upcoming regulations on the workforce, yeah. You know, um that that's a good question, Course. Um the new and the upcoming on the workforce. Could could you could could I ask for a for a for a little clarification on the question?

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Yeah, basically, um do you know of any uh upcoming uh regulations that are gonna be coming up?

SPEAKER_02 29:58

And yes, yes, yes, yes, I do. Yes, I do. Absolutely I do. So it's tied into AI and machine learning. Um, a lot of companies, these big companies are adopting these uh uh uh protocols for recruiting where they'll run through the people who apply for a role through AI, and they'll determine if or not the person is uh gonna move on to the next. So they're having they're having computer screen resumes to make some decisions. And there's a lot of bias that goes into the questions and the and the direction that the AI is looking into. There's a really good case right now going on, um uh Mobly versus Workday out in California that's working its way through the legal system that is gonna be really telling. There's this guy, he applied for um a bunch of jobs, and workday is a uh is uh is a is a technology that uh a lot of companies uh use to run their uh business, and there's an HR module for that. Um and if uh uh this guy feels like he was turned down due to due to bias that was put into the system. Um and and and and I think it and it turned into a class action, it's it's ongoing. If any of your listeners uh you know really want to go down a good rabbit hole about this, uh what's coming, it's gonna be a really telling thing. Um on one hand, is it um is it gonna is it gonna put some real guardrails on what technology is able to do with resume screening? I hope so. Um but time will tell. But uh I'd point your listeners to uh to uh mobile versus work. Um uh for you know, does he get up on uh on on what's coming um uh with this AI uh interaction with human resources?

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Well, tell us about any other any upcoming projects that you're working on that people need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for asking that. So we are so we're not one of the big firms where you know there's there's there's a lot of big firms out there, but there's also a lot of boutique niche firms like us. What we're getting into uh in the in the near future is moving, not moving, but but putting more of an emphasis on contingent hires, on contract, on fractional placements. Um, these are roles where um uh a leader will come in for a fixed term, usually in a private equity portfolio company coming up on a transaction. Um, or it could be as simple as uh a parental leave and a company needs um uh somebody to run benefits for 10 weeks. Um I I see a lot of people who are looking at these return to work mandates that are coming and opting out and saying, you know what? Um I really like my flexibility. I don't want to go back into the office five days a week. I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna try to find a uh a solution that works for me that's a little bit more flexible, where maybe I help two or three companies at the same time, or maybe I split my time in in ways that kind of fit into what they used to call the gig economy, which has kind of morphed into this fractional uh uh terminology. And we're there too, like all the other firms, where you know, we're finding more and more of our clients are asking uh for these types of solutions. So I think that um uh uh you know we're we're we're putting things in place, uh setting up some internal um platforms to um to uh to be able to offer our clients uh not only um executive search, retained executive search, um, but also be able to um to continue to provide them with uh with uh with with contract and project-based folks as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Well, so people can keep up with everything that you're up to, they'll add your contact info.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Excellent. Thanks for asking. We're the HR Search Co. We're at www.hrsearchco.com. Um and uh on LinkedIn, I'm a pretty prolific LinkedIn guy. I do about three, four posts a week. I do a um, so be sure to follow me there. Uh Rick Denius, uh D-E-N-I-U-S, my last name. Um and um yeah, the website is is there's a contact form in there as well if you want to get me directly.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

All right, we'll close us out with some final thoughts. Maybe if that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Hey, no, I would say just just you know, just hang in there. Uh, I know that uh the market is not as it's not moving as quickly as it was in uh 2023 or um even even even last year. Things are things are getting a little uh a little interesting with with with AI. And I think we're gonna see a lot more people um considering uh you know maybe uh maybe doing something different. And um I think the job market's gonna get a little more crowded. So um use some of the tools that I that I spoke about. Um do your research, um, prepare. Uh the best time to look for a new job is when you have a job. So I'd say start now. I'd say uh, you know, activating that army of network of advocates is not something that you do the day after you get laid off. It's something that you should start doing tomorrow. You know, treat every day like a job interview for your next job, whether it's internal or or or or looking out, because uh there's a ton of composition, uh competition, and I think it's gonna get a little more crowded. But um, but yeah, just just hang in there, be resilient, and uh and just be focused on being the the person who can solve the the problem that led them to you know post the job in the first place. I keep coming back to that, but it's it's critical and it's the core, and a lot of people don't don't don't don't don't get that um intuitively.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Absolutely, ladies and gentlemen, and to keep up with everything that Rick Dinius is up to, check him out on LinkedIn or visit him at hrsoachco.com, follow Ray Review, share this episode to as many people out there out there as possible. A lot of people out there looking for jobs, they can definitely use Rick's advice or contact him because he is the man. Also, to keep up with all things living the dream, visit w dot curveball337.com. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And Rick, thank you for all that you do, and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

And thank you for the opportunity, Curtis. It was really nice to talk with you and you and your listeners.

SPEAKER_00 37:03

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.