Voices of Strength: Terry McGuire's Journey Through Mental Health Advocacy

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the living the dream. If you believe, you can believe. Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curve Follow Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today we're going to be talking about mental health as I am joined by certified peer specialist Terry McGuire. Terry is she has uh volunteered and trained at a crisis line, and she is also the founder and president of the nonprofit organization, Giving Voice to Mental Illness, Inc. And for eight plus years, she has hosted the podcast, Giving Voice to Depression, where she has interviewed hundreds of people. So we're going to be talking to her about her work and her organization and everything that she's up to and gonna be up to. You know, she served on boards in um Wisconsin as well. So, Terry, thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

So thank you. I appreciate that you think I am contributing to the world and trying to make it better.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Well, you most certainly are. So why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:25

What do you want to know? Family, work history?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Everything you want to tell us.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Okay. Uh I'll stick to work since that's what we're talking about. Um, I was in a in past life a reporter and journalist, uh uh news anchor on TV. And then I worked freelance doing on camera narration and voiceovers for a couple decades, many decades, three, four decades. And in 2017, after a really intense and long depression, I realized that what would have helped me is hearing from other people who also had similar symptoms and experiences, and they could say, like, oh yeah, you know, you gotta this or that, or try this or that, or it has a name. Any of those things would have been very helpful. And so I thought, with a background in journalism and voiceovers, and I knew how to edit audio, and I thought, I don't know, I heard a podcast, I hadn't listened to many, and I thought I'd try one. So um this month I'm starting the 10th year of that same podcast. Uh, next month will be the 500th episode, and I've talked to people about their depression and suicidal thoughts and suicidal loss and mental health in general, and then anxiety and bipolar disorder and the things that overlap with depression. And I've been telling stories for okay, I think I'm up to 46 years now professionally. So I guess that's what I can tell you about me. I'm a storyteller and I focus on mental health because I think it's very important for people who are feeling disconnected and alone and uniquely flawed to learn that they are not any of those things in reality.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Absolutely. Well, I know you've you you've uh also had your battles with depression. So uh as much as you want to, you you know, talk about what your battle was like.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Battle's an interesting word, and I use it too, but I'm not sure how much I was fighting it when it was really bad. I think I just thought it was the way I was now. Um, you know, I was just worthless, um, all the things it tells you. Um, I don't know when it started. I mean, if I had to guess, I actually think it's probably childhood, uh, but I'm a child of the 60s, and we were not talking about mental health back then. Uh, we aren't enough now. Wasn't until I don't know. I remember in my teens, you're you're a lot younger than me, but MASH was a big show. And the the song, you know, the opening song, the title, I don't remember what the adjective is there. The title song was Suicide is Painless. And I sang that around my house a lot. And I would recognize that now as a problem if one of my children had been doing that. Um, it was not recognized as anything in my house, and that was just the time, I think. And being one of seven kids, I can't imagine how exhausted my parents were. But it really wasn't, I don't know. I I was on and off of antidepressants during my marriage and childbirth, you know, that can be pretty uh disruptive to hormones and the rest of it. But even when in 2015 it really, really hit and kind of took me down, I I didn't recognize it as depression. Even though I'd had it before, because it had had it so much more mildly, even though I'd been on antidepressants, I did not recognize it as an illness. And so I didn't treat it as an illness, which meant it lasted oh so much longer than it needed to.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Well, um, as as far as your podcast, what what do you see as the benefit of having recording and and sharing, you know, the interviews that that you have with your guests?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

So much, and I'm surprised how much, you know, my hope was everybody says it, and everybody might mean it. I certainly did, you know, that if we can just reach one person um and let them know that it's a medical condition and it's not a flaw, and it's not a you're, you know, you're just not all the things your mind is telling you. And I have learned from every single person I've interviewed, and and I know that there is value in their stories because you're learning that other people have similar symptoms, similar experiences. You're also learning the ways in which they manage their mental health. And sometimes you're like, oh, I never thought of that. I never thought of naming my depression so that I could say, hey, whatever, Gilda, you know, quiet down or shut up or go away, or yeah, I got it. I'm useless. I'm always gonna feel this way, I don't need to hear it right now. That can create a little bit of distance that can be helpful. Of course, you're gonna hear about medications and therapy and getting outside and doing yoga and all the things that can work for people, faith, uh, and they're not all gonna work for everybody. And things that work for me today might not work tomorrow, might not have worked yesterday. But I think primarily it's that sense of connection when depression is so isolating, and to just hear other people and be able to shake your head and go, yes, yes, that's what it's like. And to get language, sometimes it can just help to know what to say if you go to an emergency room because you're suicidal, as opposed to trying to come up with that. What what what do I say in a in a situation you've never been in before that is very high stakes? What language do you use to describe it to your children, your partner, your friends, your coworkers? What do you say to your doctor? You know, all of that can be really hard to come up with on your own when you're really unresourced. And so I think the value is all of the above, and probably more that I'm not thinking of right now, because everybody's story is unique and everybody's experience of life is unique. And there are, you know, if it was a Venn diagram, there's a lot of crossover. And so it can be very helpful to hear, oh, you know, I personally did not know that suicidal thoughts were a symptom of depression or can be. And once I realized that and started hearing other people literally using the same words that I was hearing, you're a burden, you're worthless, no one cares, you they'd be better off without you. Those those messages that can play on a loop in your head and in your own voice, I might add, which makes them pretty convincing. When you hear, if you hear, and I hope somebody is hearing, that that is common, that a lot of people experience it, and that it's not true. The fact that you're hearing it doesn't make it true. I think there's enormous value in that.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Well, you you talk about a symptom of depression that is seldomly discussed. So tell us about that symptom and why you feel like it's seldomly discussed.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

I think it's the thoughts. I mean, I just did a two-hour long interview. I have a I have another podcast. The one we're talking about is giving voice to depression. I also have an on-camera podcast now called Recoverable WithRecovery.com. That's where I'm working now. And I think that we, when you look at the list, I happen to find the printed list unhelpful for me because it has things like what are the symptoms of depression? And it will say, eat too much or eat too little, sleep too much or sleep too little. I get that it can be either, and I appreciate that the list points out it can the experience of depression can be different for different people, but I don't find it real helpful in trying to get a grasp on what I'm experiencing. So for me, I try to just say if somebody's different, if you're different, you know, just not yourself, um, something's up and it's a good thing to explore and try to figure out what before it gets a lot worse. But I think the thoughts are the symptoms that just aren't talked about enough, you will see suicidal ideation. Okay, what does that mean? Ideation isn't a word I use outside of the term suicidal ideation. It's not, I don't think it's common language. But if you just if I'd had some distance between myself, the beliefs I had about myself and those thoughts, I think I'd have gotten out of it a lot sooner, a lot sooner. Because for about two years, my life was really compromised. And the other thing, not a symptom, but the other thing I think it's really important to understand is that it's a medical condition. Depression is a medical condition. It is not a weakness, it is not laziness, it is not a failing. And what do you do when you're sick? What do you, you know, when you think whether it's strep throat or COVID or all the things we can get, you take care of yourself, you show yourself some grace, you may call a doctor and make an appointment to get it checked out. I mean, we we know the symptoms of things like stroke, you know, and and many of us have learned what you would ask a person who you think might be having a stroke to do, to be like, oh, it is. This is a stroke. I need to call 911. We've no idea, no idea how to identify depression in somebody. And when they do talk about what they're feeling, it can just be like, oh, you know, that's so negative, or I don't want to be around that, or you're not fun anymore, or what's wrong with you, or you have so much to be grateful for, you know, those kinds of things. We don't do that to people with other illnesses. You know, when someone's having an asthma attack, we don't say, there's so much air around. I don't understand why are you having trouble breathing, you know? Like that's just no, if someone saw that or witnessed that, you'd be like, what are you doing? What are you saying? She's clearly having an asthma attack. It's the same thing with depression. Don't tell me how much I have to be grateful for. That just makes me feel worse because now on top of everything else, I feel ungrateful. So there's just so much we don't know about it, including how to talk about it, including how to say to someone, hey, you just don't seem yourself. All these things you used to do, or this one thing you used to do, you haven't shown up for a what softball game or a work party or a book club or whatever it might be, and that's not like you. Um, what's going on? We don't have those discussions. Do you do people like tune in to you, Curtis? Or is your world full of empathetic, tuned-in people who are willing to have difficult conversations? I know mine isn't.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

I guess whenever I do podcasts, it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Yeah, me too. And that's why I like it, because it's you know, it's like let's get real for an hour here so that somebody can realize that's an option.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Well, you also uh have a uh Facebook community, so so talk about how online strangers can you know provide support to people and tell listeners about that Facebook community how they can check it out.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

You have done your homework. It's just called Giving Voice to Depression. Um, there are more than 19,000 people, and I know that there are bigger groups, but this is a it's a pretty intense thing. It's pretty cool. They are very engaged, and um, I there's two of us. Uh a partner of mine, um Sarah, who is reached out to me. She's a retired woman in Texas. I'm in Wisconsin, and she heard about the podcast and said, I want to help. I can lick envelopes. And I said, Oh, that's so funny. You're even older than I am because we use email. But now what she is is the social media manager, essentially. And we respond to every person who shares a post or comments, and it might just be an emoji, but it's often more than that. And it's just a place where people can feel understood. And we take a we take quotes every day we post and have for gosh, you know, nine full years. We'll take quotes from the interview of the guest from that week just to let the guest, which is 99% people with depression, know that their story and their words matter, and that we really heard them and that we think they have value. We want to get them out into the world. And for the people who are seeing them, if they didn't listen to the episode, they can at least get some nuggets of truth. Um somebody else's experience and perspective. And there have been times when somebody has posted that they were really uh oh, I never know what words to use because I don't want to trigger anybody, but very near an edge. And I have asked, you know, hey, I'll say Patty, um, can I ask the community for support? Because it's a community, it really is. And and this example will tell you why I think so, believe so. And sh if she said yes, which they usually do, you know, I'll say, hey, everybody, you know, Patty's really having a rough time. She's believing depression's lies. We've all been there. Let's show her some love. And things have changed over the years, algorithms have changed and Facebook has changed. Um, but in the day, there would be hundreds of people who would respond. Now it's dozens, but it's still a lot. And if you are hearing or reading, you know, hey Curtis, I've been there. You know, it's it's hold on, there is another. If it's you're not the only one, if it's I'm sending prayers, whatever it might be, they have then, they being the people for whom I have made those posts, have then gotten back to us the next day or two days later and told us how it helped them through the night. And it may have been that, you know, they were crying, not that that's the hallmark of depression. Not everybody looks like that when they have it. But, you know, when they would tune back in or stop crying or wake up or whatever it was and check, there were more, and there were more things using their name and telling them that they mattered. And sometimes it's oh, it's uh like animated hugs or little things that you would think are just too simple to matter. But we've had people tell us that when they're crying, they can't read the posts, and so seeing those, the hearts being blown at them or whatever really comforted them. And that's a great example of social media's power being used for good because we know all the ways it can be negative. And if people who are hurting are feeling connected and supported by a really very small effort on the supporter's part, you know, you may be just clicking the heart button, you may be doing that emoji, you may be saying, hold on, it gets better. It doesn't take a huge investment of time or energy to make a huge difference for someone who's struggling. And in my mind, this is all upstream suicide prevention. Did that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Good.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

So tell us about your non your nonprofit organization. Uh you know, what what you guys do and why you decide to start it.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

I will tell you about it, but I have to start by saying that I dissolved it at the end of last year because I started working for recovery.com, which is sort of like a Yelp for people who are looking for treatment options for mental health conditions or addictions. So it was called Giving Voice to Mental Illness. And I started it because I had no money to start a podcast and you know, had just crawled out of a two-year depression. And I worked freelance. So I did voiceovers and you sound like you feel. And, you know, nobody really uh wanted somebody who sounded deeply depressed doing their commercial. So I started that so that I could apply for grants. And that's how we funded the first eight years of the podcast, and it was fascinating. You know, I had never written a grant before, I'd never done a podcast before, I'd never spoken at schools, I had never tabled, you know, set up a table at a suicide prevention event or a mental health conference and handed out information and talked to people. All of it was new. Um, and I don't like when I think about doing that, I don't get that out of my comfort zone that often or that comfortably. But I really, really believe in this. I was gonna use past tense, but I still do. And so that made it it, it's a mission, you know, it just is. It it became so much more than a podcast or a job for me. And so that's why I'm still doing it. But then but the nonprofit has been dissolved after eight years.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

All right. Well, it didn't say that in your bio.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

So uh I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

Uh no problem. Um, let's talk about, you know, you also worked uh trained and volunteered at at a crisis line. So I did. Talk to listeners about that and what that experience was like.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

I will. I will it was a local hotline. I want to first say 988 if you're in the U.S., I think Canada has the same number, but it is so important to have that in your back pocket or up your sleeve or whatever metaphor you want to use, because there are times we're in crisis. And I put that in quotes because we define what a crisis is. It's not, you don't have to be actively suicidal. It's overwhelm. It is just, I need someone to talk to. This is not something I can do myself. And for whatever reason, you might not have people to talk to, or you might be ashamed to talk to them about this particular thing, or lots of things, right? There might be a million reasons somebody wouldn't have someone to talk to in a crisis moment. My crisis, the crisis line I worked at was a local one. And I did it in response to the death of a niece. Um, and I couldn't think of something to do to honor her and her mother, my sister. And so I trained to work there because I realized I did not have the skill set to really sit in the dark with somebody and to either make space and not talk, just listen, or just sit, or to talk and have some idea of what to say. So that's what I did, and it was very interesting. You know, I did not, I was so afraid. I was so afraid after you do the training, you sit beside another listener and listen to them and learn from them. And then eventually you start taking the calls yourself. And whatever time period you're supposed to just watch, I extended over and over and over because I was so afraid to answer that call and have someone tell me they were suicidal. And you ask each caller, are you suicidal? And that's a hard question to ask if you haven't asked it before. I have to tell you, it gets easier. And it does not put the idea in people's head. That's a misconception. You know, it is if you're not, you're not. And if you are, oh, that question can give you permission to say it. You know, it it I think of it as letting air out of a balloon that's about to pop. It's like, oh my God, I can finally say it. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot in the training. I learned a lot talking to people. Um, I, you know, in response to that question, there was one woman who would always say, Yes, I am, but then the follow-up questions, and she'd say, No, not tonight, not tonight, dear, not tonight. I was like, okay. So, you know, I had never had that conversation. I had never asked that question. And interestingly, I ended up stopping working there because my depression got so bad that I went in and just said, Hey, I think at this point I qualify as a caller. You know, I should be calling this line, not answering. And that was sort of the beginning of that really long, dark, deep depression. And I just could not be taking those calls while I was in it. But I'm so grateful that those lines exist locally and nationally, because they help a lot of people. And the research shows that even weeks later, when they check on someone, they're still in a better place than they were when they called.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Well, what talk about some of the signs that uh a person who is who is trying to help somebody that that might need uh support. What are some of the signs that they can know that this person is struggling and needs some support?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Uh there's there are tons of lists online, and you know, the some of the things that come to mind are like if someone's giving away their treasured things, um, but for me, I really focus on someone's, you know, air quotes, not themselves. And that's easier for me because I don't remember lists very well, and because I'm more likely to notice that. And it's just the somebody's, oh gosh, you know, we think of depression as ee or, you know, you think somebody's just crying, they're just sad, and you could tell, you could tell they're just sad. But some people get really aggressive and angry, and you know, if somebody's making gestures over here, I'm so glad this is audio only. If someone is gesturing at you on the road, you know, I don't think many of us have the grace in our hearts to say, like, I, oh, I hope that person isn't suffering. I hope they're not really hurting and struggling right now. I think you think jerk. But for many people, that isn't can be an expression of depression. I'm trying to think of some other ones because I distracted myself with that message. Some people are really flat, that's what I have. I just have the nothing. Nothing. Yeah, I don't feel anything. And I feel like I'm almost like if you take a walk at night and you can look, you know, you see, I'm not like not in a in a pervy way, but you know, look into somebody's house, you see the lights on. That's how I feel like I'm experiencing my own life. Like I'm in the dark outside, and I can see what's supposed to be my life in there. So that's another expression of it. And there's plenty of sadness as well. And I interviewed a woman the other day who described her depression as a welcomed weighted blanket. You know, she she welcomed it in a way because she so wanted to check out, and that allowed her to. It's a tricky little bastard. It is such a shape-shifter. It can look different for everybody, but it always feels bad. And those thoughts, I think, are the consistent thing, just believing that you have lost your worth as a human. So if someone is just not being themselves, and again, that can be more aggressive, that can be just ugh, or there's, you know, smiling depression, there's a whole bunch of different words for it. I had a board member who calls it perfectly hidden depression and has written a book by that name, Dr. Margaret Rutherford. And there are plenty of us who get up and go to work and do what we've got to do and appear just fine, but inside it is a different story. So it's hard to know sometimes, but it's good to ask. And when you say, hey, how are you doing? What do you think somebody's gonna say? They're gonna say, fine, I'm fine. That's what everybody says, it's what I always said. And there are a lot of recommendations for how to have those kinds of conversations, but I happen to think that the word really following up can be profound because it tells someone, I was actually asking, I actually want to know, and I'm making time and space for your answer. And then you can decide what you got to do to support the person after that. If they say, no, actually, I'm not, I'm really hurt and I'm struggling. I don't know what's wrong. That's what I would have said. I don't know what's wrong. Well, yeah, it's a tricky thing, but we have to try. Saying nothing is just not acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Absolutely. Well, tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Well, next month is a 500th episode of Giving Voice to Depression, and so I am working on rallying the three co-hosts that I have had over the years to try to do sort of a retrospective episode. And I'm looking forward to that because so much time has passed and so much has changed in the world and also in um podcast world. You know, they were in 2017. I you just sort of I just did it, you know, and and it grew. But I there are so many podcasts now that it's a little harder to start one as I am learning, starting recoverable with recovery.com, because people have to know the podcast exists to listen to it. And that one I explore depression as well as other mental health conditions and also addictions and therapeutic modalities, so people can learn without going down the rabbit holes on social media, which can leave you with some pretty bad information, um, some confusing information, misinformation. And at least I'm hoping to give them a base of understanding before they start going down the holes and they'll be able to better filter the information. Oh, good. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Oh, you asked me for it. I'm sorry, I thought you said you have it. I'm so sorry. Um, recovery.com slash podcasts will show you recoverable and giving voice to depression. Uh, but they're also available on Spotify, Apple, you know, all the podcast players, all the all the big ones and and little ones as well. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Okay, we'll close us out with some final thoughts. Maybe if that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

I just want people to understand that depression is a medical condition. That if you have it or someone in your circle or world does, that you need to approach it that way and not wait for it to get better, not convince yourself you somehow deserve it because you're such a lousy human being. It can be treated. For me, that included therapy and meds. And I know people hate the word meds. I always say you either swear by them or you swear at their mention. I needed it to get out of the hole, to put a floor beneath my feet, and then I could do the other things that people say help them. Um, I'm not a when I get depressed, yoga changes that kind of gal. I if I don't, if I don't notice my early warning signs, I can sink far. And so that's when I will call a doctor. That is when I will call a psychiatrist to make an appointment and also get myself in therapy or increase the amount of times I'm in therapy if I'm already seeing someone. And all that can sound privileged, and all of it is if you don't have access to those things. There are also the hotlines, 988, where you can call and say what's going on and what resources can they connect you with? What do they know of? There are online support groups, giving voice to depressions, you know, Facebook page, you say you're struggling, Sarah or I are gonna respond, are gonna respond to you uh at some point sooner than later, because we're there all day and night. So there are a lot of resources out there. I encourage people to look them up and I encourage people to just learn about depression, what it is and what it isn't, uh being a weakness or a flaw. And that will allow them to show both themselves and anybody else who might have it in their lives a little grace and know how to support them.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

All right, ladies and gentlemen, recovery.com slash podcast. Be sure to check out that Facebook group. And if you are you know somebody that's struggling, you know, send them to that Facebook and get in touch with Terry and you know, call 988, you know, do what whatever you feel is necessary for you to get the help that you need because even though you might not feel like it, you are important. We all are important. So please be sure to follow rate review, share this episode to as many people as possible. Also go sign up for the Living the Dream newsletter by visiting www.curveball337.com. Please share the show on the website to everybody you know. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And Terry, thank that thank you for all that you do in the mental health space and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 33:17

Thank you for shining lights on the work that people do, and thank you for the work you do, Curtis.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.