Empowering Words: Tracee Lydia Garner on Writing, Disability Advocacy, and the Art of Resilience

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with Curveball. If you believe, you can achieve.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today's guest is Tracy Lydia Gorner. Tracy is the international best-selling author of 18 books. She is also a speaker, a writing coach, and a dynamic course creator. Tracy writes books depicting African Americans. She writes nonfiction and fiction books depicting African Americans overcoming adversity in their life and in their love pursuits. And she talks about her craft every chance she gets. Tracy is the creator of Garner Solutions LLC, where she helps writers finish their books and helps them with the publishing process. And she also helps people with disabilities achieve their independent living goals. So we're going to be talking to Tracy about the amazing work that she's doing and everything that she's up to and gonna be up to. So, Tracy, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Thank you so much, Curtis. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Sure. A little bit about myself is always a hard question for me. It's hard for me to be brief, but I will try. I am currently in the Northern Virginia area, just outside of DC. My name is Tracy Lydia Garner, just as you said, um I am a longtime disability advocate, and I also have a disability. I have muscular dystrophy. I was diagnosed two years at age two years old, more than two years, about 49 years. I'm almost uh 50. I'll be 50 in October this year, and I'm excited about reaching that milestone. But um, yes, I've had my disability for as long as I can remember. It's just become a part of me, part of my identity and who I am, but not in any way that limits me or you know tries to keep me down. I've always been an optimistic, faithful person. Um, I credit that to my parents. My dad was an ordained minister, and um, even when I got here, he was ordained um and has pastored a small church for over almost 30 years before his passing. So just have that faithful um ideas embedded in me and it's guided me and helped me through everything in life, especially my disability, especially as I get older, because it is it's totally different as you age. When you're young, you think you can do anything, and you you really can. Uh, as you age with a disability, it's been it's been challenging these last few years. And I'm a writer. I love the written word, I love the spoken word, and I love the printed word. Um, I love to read and listen to all mediums of writing, other writers, and I've written actually now need to update my bio. I've written 22 books um compared to the 18 that you mentioned. So um, it's just been a labor of love. I discovered writing when I was in, I've always written, I can remember something I wrote in elementary school, but I didn't pursue publication until my college years when I entered a writing contest and won the grand prize. So that's just a little bit about me and and who I am and where I come from.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Well, let's talk about the day-to-day logistics of uh being a person with a disability.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

Oh gosh, where to start? What I think that um has really helped me is just an ability to have organization. I've had as many as um right now I have three different caregivers, and I've had as many as six at one time for the morning, the night, the weekends, and just being organized. It's it's been difficult sometimes, I'm not gonna lie, to have help constantly to get up, to lay down, to move a leg, lift an arm, do all this kind of stuff, but I manage. And so I think the organization, uh daily activities, and just trying to be an act and you know what is normal, but just trying to be as regular as yourself, something that's really helped me as I've aged with um having a disability. And I know I'm not as old as some people think, age, that's nothing, you're a baby. But for me, in my mind, having maturity level, I've always felt older than my um peers uh because I also you know hung out with um older people um all the time just for that mature maturity level. So some of the challenges are they are really for me mental. It's not so much physical, it's just keeping my mind right. I have seen a mental health counselor on and off for over 15 years. I'm seeing, you know, someone now that I started back up in 2023 and in my 20s, you know, I saw someone for about five years. And so keeping my mind right and brain health really is the key. I know people say the heart is the central kind of, you know, anything that happens to that can um, you know, wreck your entire body. But I really believe it's the mind, because the mind tells you how to take care of your heart and your limbs and your internal organs. So I find that just I just love my mind, my brain, and that sounds conceited or whatever, but it's the truth because it is just motivating me. What I input to my brain has helped me live my life. So finding systems, finding routines, interviewing caregivers is a whole other thing. It's like you're a CEO of just you, and so you have to interview these, interview these people to come help you. But in a support network, I always tell people to have a support network. My my mom and dad, uh, my dad before he passed away, my brother. Um just the network has always kind of like a cheerleading section. They can't always help you do the things you need to do, but they can spur you on and they can provide financial support if we're being honest. Um, all those things to help me get to my goals has been such an integral part of my life. So, you know, faith, family, and and writing, and just um having that support network and and using the resources that are available to you.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Well, what are the things that parents who are raising a child with special needs uh need to understand?

SPEAKER_03 6:57

I think they need to understand that they need to challenge themselves and challenge their child. Um, and then they're gonna, you know, as they advocate for their child, they're gonna have to challenge systems. The systems are not designed, even still in 2026 and beyond. Next year will be the same thing and year after. We've made progress, but implementing and enforcing the ADA is a whole different thing. People still try to block you. You call, I had a friend um tell me just the other day, she calls paratransit, and they're still like with these mean-spirited responses or customer service. What do you want? Where are you going? You don't know the address to where you're going? Like, give me a break. Like, we're still doing that. Like they did that, you know, in the 70s to make you hang up and never want to call back again. That's what they want us to do. They want us to give up. Don't use the resources, don't call. And then when it folds, like, well, nobody was using it. Well, you are so belligerent and mean-spirited, where you did not have to be, that you deterred people. And that was your goal to deter people. So I need parents to realize that they're gonna have to fight. Everything that their child is gonna need is gonna require a piece of paper, sometimes 10, 20 pages long, an application, and then fighting, you know, fighting, and I hate to call it fighting, but advocating. Let's use that word. It's more palatable to most people. But honestly, it is a fight. Like you have to talk to doctors, you have to talk to insurance companies, you're gonna have to talk to vocational rehabilitation centers, you're gonna have to talk to centers for independent living, like where I work. You want to have to talk to all these different um really conglomerates, if you really think about even nonprofits can be a conglomerate, um, kind of acting like, you know, we're all after their money together. So no, we're just acting, we're just after a quality of life. And so parents need to find resources, challenge themselves to think outside the box for themselves and their child. And then the last thing I'll say is just challenge your child to things. I see too many parents coddling their child, especially when they have a neuromuscular disease or any kind of physical or mobility issue. You know, my dad actually, you know, God bless him, he made me get a manual wheelchair before I got to sixth grade and got a power wheelchair. So from K, kindergarten through fifth grade, I used to pay my friends to push me around. But what he was doing was saying, no, I'm I want you to try to use a manual wheelchair as long as you can. And then when the power came, the power chair came out, man, I was on. I was going wherever I wanted to go. Nobody had to push me anywhere. I could just go. But you know, it's hard to look at that when I'm young. Like, why don't you just get me a surely there's power wheelchairs? This is the 80s, right? Early 80s. Surely there's something electronic that I can use. And he was like, no, I want you to have this first. I hated it. I absolutely hated it. But looking back on that now, even pushing myself as little as I did, he didn't know I was paying my friends in candy and MMs and push pops to hey, can you push me up up the hill here to get to the next class? He knew none of that. But just him not like folding, oh, she needs a power chair and I got to push her around and let's get a stroller until she's 18. They have like, you know, disabled adult child um strollers that you can push around. Like, no, let's see what she can do with her feet on the floor, pushing her chair around, and her arms pushing the wheels. So I'm just thankful for the ways in which they challenge me. And I just don't see that as much. You know, parents are afraid, oh, he's gonna break his leg and it's he's too weak. And first of all, you have not tested what they are capable of doing. This I tell the same thing to parents. Soon as their child turns 18, they want to um apply for Social Security benefits, which is fine. Okay, there I am not negating anyone to get their benefits because they need them and people need the money. But you have no evidence that they are not able to hold down a job. Social Security doesn't care what kind of job you have. You may have your own thoughts and ideas about being a bagger, working at a grocery store, you know, that may be beneath you, maybe beneath your family and your other um children, you know, are you know doing like government and federal and being, you know, a policy aid as a summer intern in the White House? Well, good for them. But as long as it's an honest thing to do and it's an earning, there's nothing wrong with that. So I challenge parents. I'm like, you need to see what he can do or she can do before you automatically apply for benefits. If you need them, if you if you need them, great. But what if your child is capable of holding down a job for 20 or 30 years, you know, in a marketplace, in in a grocery store, in um, you know, even retail or fast food chain. There's nothing wrong with that. That is an honest living. But parents are gonna have to admit when they might be embarrassed. And so they're automatically, you know, pulling for, oh no, we're just gonna apply for social security. Well, Social Security is also gonna deny you because they're like, we don't have any evidence that your child can't work. So I just caution parents to challenge themselves, challenge their own thoughts and views about disability, and then challenge their children and challenge the systems that are supposed to be helping us. But for whatever reason, prejudice, discrimination, uh, lack of funding cuts, whatever reason they try to buff, uh, rebuff us and reject us. So you're gonna have to fight.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Well, what are some tips that you can give someone who is who has been newly diagnosed with a chronic illness?

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Um, the first things that I would suggest they do is to get around other people who are a little bit ahead of them. I think the first few moments of being diagnosed, the first few weeks and months, and even the first, you know, maybe one to two years, is where you're either going to decide to make it or you're going to succumb to, I hate to say it, but suicidal ideation or drugs or self-harm. I think those first few years and months are critical because you need to get around people who also have been injured, but are making it. They're getting back to their, you know, as normal a self as they have. Of course, it's there's a new reality they have. But in their brain, you're still the same person. You still have goals. You want to get a job, you want to have a girlfriend or boyfriend, you want to get married, you want to have children, you want to live on your own and have your own house. Those goals are universal. They're just going the way to get to them are just going to be different. So those first few months, um, I really credit like some organizations really are in there with you in the trenches. I would say, like, the spinal cord injury association gives people a backpack. Anyone newly disabled or newly has a spinal cord injury? I'm not a spinal cord injury person myself, but I've um been uh sending some of their resources to um a person that has been newly uh disabled. Uh, what do the veterans do? The veterans go to other veterans who have been injured, combat veterans, people who've you know had uh amputations and limb loss and also uh brain injury. They get around, they are really good at that. They get around other people that have been through them, say, hey, here's what you have to do. This is how you're gonna survive, this is how you're gonna get through, get another job, become a civilian, and adapt to this life, you know, with your miss with your uh limb loss, with your um brain injury, you know, with this new uh dosage of medication that you may have to take for the rest of your life. So um you just we need peer support. And that's actually what we do at the Center for Independent Living. I'm a peer. I've been through the disability, I drive my own car, I, you know, as as am independent as I can be, it supports. I have caregivers, I hire and train, pay them. So somebody else who's newly disabled, all they can see is a dismal outlook and they don't have hope usually. So, you know, and some do fine, some transition fine, they don't have any issue. They're like, I'm still me, I can still do whatever. I'm gonna, you know, I was gonna be an Olympian, now I'm gonna be in the Paralympics, you know. So um, it's different for everybody, but if you know someone, you want to come alongside them and try to support them and help them get the resources and the access that they need.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Well give uh for any employers who who might be listening out there, give some tips on how employers can be uh become more welcome, welcoming to a largely untapped disabled workforce.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

Yes, and isn't it sad that still people with disabilities um are not hired as much? Now, we made some gains in the pandemic. The numbers did go up, but still not enough to meet our non-disabled peers. We're still lagging. What I would tell employers is to keep an open mind. You know, think outside the box. And even if you are uncertain, give that person a chance and make a note of, you know, this worked and that worked. So even if it doesn't work with that person, you can know in your heart, and you know, provided, you know, some employers don't uh may not have a heart, if we're being honest, but in your heart for the ones that are due, the ones that are conscious and aware and woke for lack of a better word, and want to give opportunity, keep trying. It may not work with one person with a disability, it may work with someone else, but don't just be like one and done. What I would also tell employers is find, help find the new employee with a disability support, right? I've been in, I would say this happened to me in my schooling. I went to a big school, I was so happy to get in. I'm talking about I was one in a class of 300 students for the freshman classes and I failed. I flunked out, I got one bad grade, and I didn't have a team, I didn't have a support system in school. School is not, high school is not college. And so that transition was hard. I did pretty good in high school. I wasn't an A student, but I wasn't a D F student either. You know, and so to get into a new pool, if you think about it, let's say you hire a person with a disability, they don't have that much experience, but they're trying to make it. Don't just give them a job so you can fire them. Give them a job and then give them maybe a couple people, senior level people who are willing to help them, come alongside them, give them tips, you know, train them properly. Because the other thing is that sometimes employers feel good about what they've done, but you know, they're like they're when it doesn't work, they're like, oh well, I tried. You know, I did what I was supposed to do. I gave that young man a chance or that young woman a chance. You know, they get indicted, like um like they just, you know, saying yes and giving them an opportunity. If you really, you know, want to see them succeed, then give them the supports to go along with the opportunity that you are giving them. Don't just think, don't just let them fail um and get fired or quit because you, you know, you didn't do anything else. Hiring is not the end. And then also say for people with disabilities who are going to become employed. Be honest. You know, look for the supports. We have the job accommodation network. That is a big um place with so many supports for both employers and employees, employees with disabilities and employers that want to hire or that have hired someone with a disability. There are lots of resources now to help you find a job, and you just have to stick with it. It's hard not to become depressed and cynical. Well, there's just nothing out there for me. And I've applied to 100 places. You know, now in this time with AI and everything, you have to apply to 250 places. You know, people, my brother, when he was a teenager just out of college, he applied to 100 places and got, you know, three, four, five callbacks, and that doesn't work anymore. You have to really put it out there. And also, there's other things. There's hiring programs, there's work incentives for people who are on Social Security and SSI, SSDI. And then there's also um Schedule A letters for the federal government. If if you work on these avenues, you will get employed. But you also have to think about how you're coming across, get your resume fixed if you have to pay for it, or maybe a parent or a supporter can help pay for it. It's like $200 to $300. You know, look for ways and means to improve your own self. It's not just on the employer, it's on you too. So, um, and you know, there's also disability disclosure. You know, I can't hide my disability. It's right there coming down the hall with my noisy, squeaky wheelchair. But some people do have hidden disabilities. And so you have to make up in your mind you're not gonna look at it something to hide, but to be forthcoming and be honest. And you'll know right away if the employer wants that, can take that, because I think eventually it's gonna come out. And if you hide it, how what does that say about you? I'm not saying that you shouldn't always disclose because you have to make a right choice for you. There have been times when I haven't um disclosed on a virtual interview, but eventually I'm going to need to make a reasonable accommodation. It's almost like a bait and switch. And so um, you gotta do what you gotta do in order to get your foot in the door. But also, you need to be a good employee. You want somebody to hire you, you want to have a good boss, but you want to be a good employee too.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Well, let's talk about Gorner Solution LLC, you know, kind of tell us about that company and uh what what you guys do and how you're helping people.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Yeah, mostly helping people with books who are either thinking about writing a book or have partials of a book. You know, everybody's got a manuscript that's 10 years old in the drawer somewhere, uh, waiting to be finished and released to the world and uploaded on Amazon and Barnes Noble. And I'm just really like a book coach. I'm an encouraging person that I've published my own 22 books. I can help you publish your book and also Undergarden Solutions. I teach. I actually teach uh how to write a novel privately and also as a class. I teach, I've taught at university how to write a novel for 15 years. And now I teach on the public school side, continuing adult education, also how to write a novel. And I just love teaching. I love helping people reach their publishing goals. If you desire to write a book, you know it's burning inside you and you've only tinkered on the computer. You know, I can ask you questions to help you get to the finish line. And then I can help you publish it because you can waste so much money doing the wrong things, and then all of a sudden, you don't have any more money to do the right things. And so I just help people avoid making costly mistakes and not getting their book done. I have editors and cover designers and lots of different people that I meet with in order to help get the book to a place where it looks like all not looks like all the other books, but it fits in with the books that are on the shelves and what you see on Amazon. You want a quality book, you want a book that looks good, you want a book without lots of typos and mistakes. And so I help people really to do that because it's it's a maze of of just so many options, and people end up wasting a lot of money. And people don't have extra money, just waste and throw away. Even if you want to go after a book deal, I can help you write a query letter, um, do your synopsis, get your publishing package ready. Like it's almost like a proposal to submit to a publishing house and see if they would like to buy it or to get an agent to help represent you. So I work on people who want to do either or self-publishing or traditional publishing, where they get a contract and a monetary advance to publish their work. And I've I've had both traditional contracts. The contest that I won years ago opened the door for me to submit more books to them. And I was paid in advance to finish writing those books and they publish them for me. And then I've also done the self-publishing route, which I love because if you have a book in you and it's about ready, you can put it up on Amazon tomorrow. If you know what you're doing and you work with me and it's been edited, you know, provided we don't want to put any bad stuff out there. We want it edited, polished, and a really good cover that fits your genre and fits what your topic is. So nobody can look at it and say, wow, this looks kind of cheap and bootleg and self-published. We're publishing quality books and really taking our time. And so I have a couple of different regimented coaching programs, like three months, six months, and even a year coaching packages to help people finish their book and publish them and even market them. I don't do as much marketing side, but I have tons of resources to help people learn how to market their books.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Speaking of books, let's talk about your 22 books, you know, just kind of give us some overview, maybe of your top books or you know, best books, and uh talk to the listeners about those.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

Sure, I love writing fiction. I have some nonfiction books. I have a book for writers uh that's nonfiction. I also have a self-help book that's nonfiction. It's called Pack Light, Thoughts for the Journey. But the majority of my books are fiction or what I call romantic suspense. Um, so I love a good car chase, an accident on a major highway, somebody's trying to kill me, somebody's chasing you. I just love those adding in and sprinkling in those added elements of suspense. And a lot of people ask me, you know, where do my ideas come from? They are ripped from the headlines. I always say that, you know, people end up on the news for one snippet of their life, usually a bad decision that they have done. And then um they're on the news and then you don't know what happens to them. And I'm also obsessed with missing persons. I've actually written two books about two missing women and kind of what happened to them, um, you know, where they found. They one was kidnapped, the other one um died at the hands of a um of a less than stellar foster care home. And so I just love taking, you know, little things um from the news. And part of my writing is always about faith, family, and love. But it's the hope of a romantic relationship, you know, an intimate relationship. And even though I write clean fiction, which there are no open door love scenes, I still love the kiss and the hug and the caress, all those elements you'll still find in my book without the actual uh, you know, the the nitty-gritty stuff. But um, and that was a choice. My first three books actually did um show actual love scenes. And um, people would tell me, wow, that was steamy. And I'm like, okay, very good. Um, but yeah, I stopped writing that a long time ago. So I have eight books um that are two different series. One is about a woman who adopted five boys. They were all in various points of um foster care, and she and her husband adopted them. The book actually opens with the mother, the adopted mother, is dying of cancer. So all the boys come home to see about her care and her burial, and they all have to reconcile about, you know, they do they go back and look up their parents, do they find them? And they all have baggage when it comes to love and relationships. So the first one that comes home, Cole, he comes home, he's kind of like the one everyone looks up to because he was one of the first to be adopted, him and his other, um, one of the other adopted boys, Dexter. So they come back and there's a woman who's been a friend to their adoptive mother for years, and she's like their the girl next door. So he had a crush on her and he loved her and they dated for a while, but he left. And so now he's back to see about his mother's estate, bury her, have a funeral, and then they kind of get rekindled. So it's a lot about relationships. Um, and of course, she ends up being embroiled in a in something, like somebody has a vendetta against her, and of course he has to protect her, and he has to actually stay there and not go back to his home, which is in New York, and stay there and stick around, see about his mother's affairs, his adopter's mother's affairs. And then he also might run into his adopted his uh biological dad, who is a senator who never owned him. So, and that, if you can think about it, was taken a little bit from John Edwards. His wife was dying of cancer, and he ended up cheating on her with his secretary, I think. And then there was a love child as a result of that. So you see them, you know, I don't know anything else about John Edwards except how awful a man could cheat on his wife who's dying from cancer, and she eventually died. But I took some elements of that and used it for my own book. So that's what I mean by rip from the headlines. I was obsessed with Natalie Holloway when she disappeared. Gosh, I was a teenager, you know, um 20, 30 years ago almost. Uh, maybe I wasn't a teenager, it's probably in my early 20s or my late teens. And every day I would rush home from my academics in college and be like, did they find her? Did they find her? And just, you know, just some of that pain that you think about a mother missing her child and never having a body or any confirmation of death, you know, from Jeron van der Sloot, who would end up killing somebody else after Natalie disappeared. Like all these little nuances of these news stories. And I know those are real life and those are tragic. What I'm saying about writing is part of it is to soothe your own soul. Like what happened to these people? I was obsessed with missing persons, right? I remember I said, you know, Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie, today's show host, mother, right? Where is she? Where is she? And I know these are real things, but to write about them and to fictionalize them, fictionalize them is to kind of take ownership and say, well, this is how it happened. You know, Nolan Wells, um, you know, who's all over the news right now, how did he die? What happened to him? And, you know, as political as people want to get, a person is still missing and it's still sad and it's tragic, you know, how he died. Nobody knows how he died, but it's tragic all that went down. So these little things and these unsolved issues, they really pull at me and cause me to create my own version of events in a fictional, in a fictional way.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

But tell us about any upcoming projects that you and your company are working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

Sure, in October, I am releasing. Hopefully, fingers crossed, I think I can do it, but it's going to be hard. I've never released two books in one month. I have released two books in a year, like March, and then again in the fall, like November, but I've never released two books in one month. The uh first book called Gather is about all the parties that I've done. I love entertaining, I love hosting parties. And so throughout the last 10, 15 years, I would hire a photographer to take pictures at all my parties. And so now I'm making kind of a collection with some recipes. Um, it's called Gather, and it's just about you know coming to the table and gathering for an event. And I give some tips and tricks on how to do that. And it's almost gonna be like a coffee table book. So that'll be in October. Um, also when I'm turning 50, I'm releasing the book at my big birthday party bash, uh, which is gonna be at a hotel here in Northern Virginia. And then the second book I'm really excited about too. I'm excited about both of them. I can't hardly stand it. I'm gonna stress myself out, but is a collection of disabled voices. It's an anthology that I'm putting together. And um I have almost 25 contributors. They've all written essays about the disability experience, living while disabled, trying to thrive, some of the adversity that they faced through elementary school, being black while disabled, just a diverse array of 25 different people, including myself. I wrote an essay to you, or I wrote a draft. I need to finish it and polish it and get it edited. But um I'm really excited about that because it'll be the first time I'm really seeing a collection of different people. And it's been a lot of labor. I'm not gonna lie. It's been it's been a task, kind of curating and getting everybody to send their picture and their bio and a quote, you know, for the project. But it's coming together and I'm really excited. And that will be out in late October. The one of the reasons I chose October for the disability book is because October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month, and I think they more generalized it to National Disability Awareness Month. So it's I'm hoping we'll get some press by being with that month. Um, so it'll probably be at the very end of October that that will come out. But those two books are going to be available online and at my website, and I'm really excited about both of them. They're so very different, but but my hand is in both of them.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

All right. Well, so people can keep up with everything that you're up to, so at your contact info.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Sure. People can email me at hello at tracygarner.com. Tracy is spelled with two E's, T-R-A-C-E-E, TracyGarner.com. They can go to my website at tracygarner.com. And I'm most active on Instagram and Facebook, but uh Instagram is my full name, Tracy Lydia Garner. And I'd love to connect with people on there, send me a message, a note, uh, what have you. We'd love to uh talk to people.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

All right. We'll close us out with some final thoughts. Maybe if that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on, or any final thoughts you have for the listeners.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

No, I don't have any final thoughts, just to you know, to keep going, keep trying. Um, I eventually hope to write, you know, a song and have it published. I want to write a play that I've been working on for the stage. Um, you know, you just never stop going. You go as much as you can, never give up. That's my motto. Never give up and keep trying. And thank you, Curtis, for having me. I appreciate it so much.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Well, I definitely appreciate you taking the time to come on. And you guys can go to tracygorner.com for more information on Tracy and also to keep up with everything that she's up to. Please be sure to follow Ray Review, share this episode to as many people as possible. Also, if you haven't done so, tell a friend to visit www.curveball337.com to keep up with all things living the dream. And be sure to share the website and the show to everybody that you know. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And Tracy, thank you for all that you do, and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.