Embracing Vulnerability: Dr. Ron Camacho's Journey to Transformative Leadership

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Living the Dream Podcast with Curveball. If you believe, you can achieve.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Welcome to the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, a show where I interview guests that teach, motivate, and inspire. Today's guest is a guest who has spent more than three decades protecting and serving their community and learning about the most important lesson that a leader could learn. True leadership starts within. Dr. Ron Camacho is the chief of police, and his leadership journey started with self-reflection, purpose, and learning that ego and pressure can affect the strongest leaders. So we're going to be talking to Chief Camacho about his leadership style and his career and everything that he's up to and gonna be up to. So Dr. Camacho, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Thank you, Curtis. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Why don't you start off by telling everybody a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Yeah, 30 years in the business of policing. I started off in uh York, Pennsylvania. I did most of my time there, 18 years. Um, I did some time overseas as a law enforcement um professional advisor in Afghanistan and Mexico. And I did uh a year at Old Dominion University as a lieutenant. And then I was lucky enough in 2016 to get um hired as a chief of police back in Pennsylvania, Chambersburg Police Department. I uh I took a lot of the things that I learned, turned that department into a very well-known, well-respected department. We got some national attention. And um in 2024, December 2024, I was selected to be the chief here at the city of North Charleston. So um huge jump for me. I went from 40 people to 400 people, and uh quite challenging, different culture um in uh the south. But uh I love it, love the people, love the officers, and we're we're changing culture, doing a lot of great things. So I'm very, very um honored to be the chief here and uh quite fulfilling of a job. And I've had um a heck of a career, can't complain about it.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Where you spent over 30 years in leadership and law enforcement. Talk about the moment that you realized that your leadership uh needed to evolve.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Yeah, so um in my first department, I got promoted up very quickly. And at one point in time, I was about 11 years on the job. I took over the detective division, and I was in York. Uh, very busy place, very violent place at that point in time. And I was young, I was supervising people that had 30 years on, and people that I had been supervising me, you know, just a couple of years before. And I was told by my bosses, you got to get this place straightened out. And, you know, I didn't have a lot of tools. You know, I was a military guy, I was a paratrooper, came from the 82nd Airborne, you know, and I only knew kind of one way to to conduct that business. And I was the kind of the the do it my way type of way. And um, you know, I got success, but there was a lot of conflict there, you know, it was a lot of butting heads. Uh, there was a lot of anger that came out from me, you know, because there was a lot of frustration every day. There was problems, every day there was there was issues. So um, even though I was successful and I thought to myself, well, this is working, um, but yet there was still conflict, and every day I was coming into work and something would trigger me and I would be angry. And I was every day I was angry. I got promoted to captain, and now I'm in charge of like 90 people, the operations captain. And this continued, you know. Uh I was the dean of discipline. So if you did something, um, if you broke policy, that fell under me. And I took that personal, which I shouldn't have. So that anger, you know, um, not only was I alienating officers, but it was affecting my home life. And uh my wife at the time said, we got to go to counseling. So we go to counseling, and the counselor, you know, immediately felt my energy and heard what I was saying and felt that anger and said, you know, we we can't work on this marriage until we work on you. You know, I had a lot of trauma, childhood trauma there that we needed to work on. It was the best thing that ever happened to me. Uh, I went through six months of intense trauma, didn't save the marriage, but it saved my life and it started changing the way I I think, the way I thought about people, how I interacted with people, and um, and that was in 2020, uh, excuse me, 2013. And since then, I I um I retired from that department right around that time. But it really started my journey on, you know, um self-awareness, reflection, introspection, and controlling my ego. Because before that, I was an egomaniac. I uh I'm surprised I could even walk into the building. But after that, I really started doing a lot of work and noticing, you know, as a leader that um, and that continues to this day, that most of the problems that I I deal with have to do with some component of ego, you know. So uh so I I started, you know, digging into that, not only on my own, but just as a as how do we deal with that as leaders?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Well, I know that uh many leaders believe that uh strength means having all the answers. So how did how did you uh learn that vulnerability and self-awareness, you know, is actually uh strength and leadership as well?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Well, um in therapy, I needed to get healed, right? So part of my thing was uh being told, you know, growing up, I had this very contentious relationship with my father. I was useless, I was not going to be anything, you know, growing up, and you know, that constant those constant punches to your self-esteem. And I carried that with me, you know, into adulthood. This therapy sessions didn't happen until I was into my early 40s, you know. So I carried this with me. So once I healed that and and kind of gained my self-esteem back, um, I could start working on myself and holding myself accountable. You know, a lot of times with when we're dealing with ego, it is um like a defensive mechanism when you have low self-esteem, right? Um people are putting on an act, you know, um you you go to correct them and they put up this defensive shield, uh, and that's their ego, because there's some sort of you know trauma there, or there's something there with their self-esteem that they don't want to get, you know, they don't they don't want it bothered, they don't want to change. So I went the totally opposite way after healing and dealing with my own bull crap, uh really starting to study and making sure, you know, the person that I was looking in the mirror was the same person that everybody else was seeing. You know, self-awareness is a powerful tool that you know I see now people get away from, you know. Uh I've been using the word delusional a lot in in these last couple of years. And we see it like on social media, we see it, you know, all over the place when we we deal with people and we're like, are they don't they see that they are acting ridiculous or you know, they're out of the social norms, you know. Don't they see that? And they probably don't because they don't have that's that situational, I mean that uh self-awareness. So um, and then I even started working on stuff to teach that to my officers and and people, you know, so they can start developing the skills so they can hold themselves accountable and start um evolving and becoming better.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Well, in a high high pressure environment like law enforcement, how do you balance making tough decisions with leading with empathy and emotional intelligence?

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, so um we're the old way, right? Pre-therapy, I always talk about pre-therapy Camacho and post-therapy Camacho. Pre-therapy Camacho got results, but uh alienated about 80% of the police department. Post-therapy Camacho is getting results, but maybe 5% of the department is not on board with what I'm doing because nobody's perfect, right? Five to 10% are not, you know, are not on the Camacho train. And that's because um uh with through emotional intelligence, you're creating those those trusting bonds, authentic bonds. And that's super important to make sure that your message is being heard and you're hearing their messages. You know, just the other day, um I'm uh talking to you know, one of the night shifts, one of the young officers talks about, hey, there's still we're still not getting some some of our information. You know, we really like a newsletter. Hey, great idea. Took it to staff, you know, took it to uh to one of our social media people, and we started putting together a um a newsletter to get out to the officers, and which will be out by the end of the month, and we'll start getting them information that way. The old school way would be, you know, you're a patrol officer, what do you know? You know, did you go through your chain of command? You know, um uh it I it's not my idea, so it doesn't exist or it's not good. That's not the way we operate here. I'll take a good idea from anybody and I want people to speak up. You know, 400 heads is better than one head, as far as leading the the agency. And um, I want people to trust me. Happy cops are good cops. Morale is high when people feel that they're wanted here and that they're feel they're going to be taken care of. That doesn't mean that our standards are not high and that accountability is not high, but they're doing a lot of their own accountability because that's the culture that we have here. We're we're self-disciplined because of these tools and the trust. They know, hey, if they screw up, they can come and say, hey, I screwed up instead of trying to hide stuff. You know, we're that's old school, you know, that doesn't work. So I'm seeing great results. We just had our half-year stats, and I saw a tremendous amount of decreases in in crime here, but I also saw my officers' activity, you know, jump uh by 11%. Our our vehicle stops jumped up by 31%, you know, and you know that that tells me that they're working, you know. Um, and if they're working, they're providing services to the people of North Charleston. And, you know, that's what I want them to do, provide good service to the people of North Charleston.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Well, what are some warning signs that a leader's ego might be affecting their uh personal well-being, their relationship, and their effectiveness?

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Yeah, so you know, um when I see a resistance uh to change, when I see a resistance to, you know, um uh orders, when I see that resistance to um critique, any sort of that resistance to any of those things, right? Even small stuff, even when it's constructive, um, that's problematic. You know, um we're not perfect. Everybody at this level, we should be learning, we should be continuing to learn. The people that are dangerous are the ones that are in these positions that stop learning, that say, you know what, I got 30 years, I'm good, you know, I'm I've learned and have done enough. Uh I'm stopping. That is dangerous. Think about all the technology that's going on, think about all the changes in law, all the changes of policy, and think about, you know, as a leader, I want to continue evolving and growing. So those people that decide that, hey, I don't want to take any more input, I don't want to be critiqued, I don't need to go to classes, I don't need anything, I'm I'm perfect, I'm good, those are dangerous people and they're gonna cause issues within your organization. And um, you know, I don't think you have to be an expert to see that, you know, you you'll you can spot them very quickly. And somebody like me, who was that at one point in time, who walked around like um like I was General Patton, you know, um, and was off-putting to a lot of people. I spot them very quickly. And uh, you know, often when I can get them in and we start talking about ego and we start trying to to address that problem. And sometimes you you gotta ask three or four questions deep to try to get into what that root of the problem is, you know. And sometimes with that, that problem might be way deeper than me. I'm not a psychologist, and they might have to go see a doctor about that. Other times that's stuff that we can work out, and there's some other techniques that they can use that I can teach them to start, you know, building that self-awareness, using introspection to help them um get control of their ego.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Well, how can leaders create a culture where accountability is empowering rather than punitive?

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, it all starts with you know, with the top, and uh it also starts with creating that culture of um of everybody being on the same team, making sure that you know every voice is heard and there's trust between the ranks and that you they know that their needs are gonna be met, their voices are gonna be heard, and if they feel that they're a part of the team, that they're respected, that they're not a number, you know, that they're not just somebody that's out there doing work, you know. Um, I have 320 officers and another 80-something civilians, and a lot of my people are amazed at how many of those officers names that I know. I don't even know how I know them, but I make it uh I make it uh a habit to try to learn as many of those names that I can. And we're hiring, you know, we're hiring like crazy. You know, we've hired 21 people this year, 20, 26 last year, and knowing their names, and or if I don't remember the name, but knowing something about them shows them some sort of caring, you know, some sort of uh connection. And they know and they kind of trust that hey, uh I am not just a number, I'm a person, I feel part of the team, I feel like um I'm important and um I feel healthy in this situation, and I'm gonna do the best thing I can do. Uh, I know that the chief is accountable. You know, he I preach and show that accountability starts at the top, and everybody is held to the same standard. And um, they're witness that they've seen uh lieutenants getting disciplined, they've seen other ranks uh get disciplined. Um, so they know it's not just um we're not up in a holy ironed uh ivory tower. It's important that everybody get treated the same, and that starts with me. Hey, on Saturday, July 4th, I'll be working with my harbor patrol. You know, we have a big 4th of July fireworks, and I'll be out there with them. So, and that that little gesture means a lot to them.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Well, what was the hardest personal change you had to make on your leadership journey and what did that change unlock for you?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, like I said, um, you know, I was a I was a jerk. I was a big angry jerk. And when I went through therapy, I learned a lot about myself. I learned where that anger was coming from, and that was huge. That was tremendous. You know, it's it's funny when somebody's angry and they don't know why they're angry, you know, they don't know what ticks them off so quickly, they don't know why, you know, their buttons can get pushed so quickly. Therapy showed me it, it it gave me a direct path to why I was feeling this way, why I felt this way. And then we started working on that and building up my self-esteem. So the big change was going from that that um insecure jerk who was loud, constantly yelling and and trying to use force of will to accomplish things, to now I'm an inspirational type person. And you know, I preach my mistakes, I show my mistakes to people. Uh, almost every story that I tell is about some of my mistakes, and that vulnerability really inspires people. You know, I'm I spend a lot of my time with you know that those middle ranks, those those sergeants, lieutenants, and captains, trying to give them as much of my knowledge as I can. And a lot of those stories, a lot of that knowledge, a lot of that experience comes from um mistakes that I've made. And that gives me great joy to give them that knowledge and watch them use that knowledge to get developed and move to bigger and better things, get promoted, um, go to other departments, become chiefs or security directors, anything like that. So um from that anger to this peace that I feel is um is a great change. And uh I I wish that anybody can can feel the peace that I feel. It's not all the time, right? Stress and life come into change into place, but most of the time I feel this great peace about me. And I know that people are searching for that peace, and I have found it.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Well, after decades of leading others, what is the big biggest misconception you feel that people have about being a great leader?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

That we have it all figured out and that we're not um that we're not still learning, you know. In my year and a half, year and eight months here as the chief, I've learned a lot. You know, uh uh in the in the process of changing culture here in this department, I have changed and I have learned some new things. So that constant evolution, the constant evolving as a person, as a leader, the good ones do that. They're always, you know, getting better, lifelong students, you know, keeping themselves humble by understanding that we don't owe it all, you know. Um here recently, um, with all my knowledge, all my degrees, all this research that I'd done, I met a CEO uh or retired CEO of a big company, and I was talking to him, and within five minutes I realized I got a lot to learn. This guy, this kind, this guy knows way more than I do. And uh I was so happy that I was introduced to this this gentleman and that I have um access to this gentleman. I thought what a gift. Um, because even at my level, there's stuff to learn.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

So well, if someone's past leadership approach has uh created tension and disconnect, what can they do to begin to rebuild trust and strength in their relationships?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

Yeah, so I'm a big proponent of pulling people in and having honest dialogue, you know, having those honest conversations and and talking about it. Sometimes you can do that one-on-one and just you know be honest with somebody. Sometimes you might need a mediator to sit in the room and um help create that dialogue. And you have to be able to, you know, take that criticism and learn from it and uh make adjustments, right? In order to become better. So um, but the key to that is honesty and being honest and being honest with the other person when you're giving that critique. You know, you want to be honest with the critiques, you don't want to be dramatic, you don't want to be mean-spirited, you want to be honest. But then you have to be honest with yourself and accept that, yep, okay, I can see where I was wrong this way, I can see where I was wrong that way. Sometimes when you are given a chance to explain your your um your thought process, the person that you have conflict with says, ah, I understand. And one of the techniques I use, I'm incredibly transparent in everything we do in this department. But me personally, I will explain my plans, my thought process, what where I'm trying to take the department, any of my programs, anything that I have going on, I will explain it to the youngest rookie, to, you know, the oldest officer. It doesn't matter of any rank. Um it doesn't, you know, some people feel like taken aback when somebody asks them a question, you know, explain this, or can can we talk about that? I look at that as a great opportunity for me to connect and then show what's going on in my mind and how we can go about doing it. So um explaining what your thought process is and not being offended when somebody's challenging you or asking you about that. Um, a lot of a lot of supervisors and managers, they they get um you know, they get a little hurt or they get uh defensive when they get challenged. I look at that as an opportunity to share my knowledge where I'm planning to take the department, where I want to go, and then elicit their help. Like help me, you know, get there. I need your help to to get to this uh finish line, you know. So um again, incredibly important to be honest, honest with the person you're critiquing, honest with yourself to take the critique, and then don't just take the critique, do something with it, get better, use it, work on it, and you know, it could be little by little, but just keep on improving, and um, you know, don't take it personal, just keep on improving, and eventually you'll win that trust back.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Tell us about any upcoming projects that you're working on that listeners need to be aware of.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Well, I'm in the final stages of writing a book. So, and guess what the book is about? Ego. So the book is called Bringing Ego to the Forefront, and it's a little bit about my journey, some of that you've heard here, and it's a little bit about leadership, and where you know, a lot of classes are not touching on the self-awareness, the empathy, the introspection, and definitely not touching on ego. So I go into depth in there, but I think where my book is going to be a little different is I give exercises and tools that people can use to help control their ego. Uh, one chapter is tools that people can do on their own, you know, for instance, journaling. Um a lot of people journal and they find uh that as a great way to control, control themselves, gain some self-awareness, and and really help, you know, help with their ego. And then there's other tools, you know, um, that you can do with others, you know, getting a mentor, um, having uh family members that give you that honest feedback. I talked about honestly early, you know, you don't you don't want to go to like your favorite aunt or uncle that's always spoiling you for that feedback. You want to find, you know, your brother, your sister, or your aunt, or your uncle, or somebody in your family, the one that's gonna tell you, you know, straight up, hey, this is what I see, and gonna give you that that hard critique, um, so that you can start, you know, working on yourself and and take those those that feedback and start, you know, um changing and evolving. So techniques, techniques, there's multiple techniques you can use by yourself if you're a loner or you just want to do things on your own. And then there's techniques that you can use with others, you know, multiple techniques that can help you, you know, control your ego. So um that's where I think it's a little different, where I'm actually providing people with tools and techniques and practices that they can use. And there's different exercises in there too that can help people and give examples of some of the things that I'm talking about. So this book has been, you know, it's 13 years of of me doing the work and you know, a little bit here, a little bit there, some of the classes I put together. So I'm pretty proud of it, and uh that'll be published in January of uh 2027.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Well, so people can keep up with everything that you're up to, throw out your contact info.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yeah, so uh if you go to bringing ego to the forefront.com, that's the webpage for the book, uh, or Camacho Consulting.net, that's uh another um website that I have. Anything that you need to see or find there, you can connect. Um, I'll be launching a uh a landing page very soon, Roncamacho.com. And I'm on LinkedIn, so if anybody wants to connect, you can find me on on there. Uh it's pretty easy. And I've got I'm on there quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Close this out with some final thoughts, maybe if that was something I forgot to talk about that you would like to touch on or any final thoughts you have for the listeners?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Yeah, yes. Um we don't talk about um ego enough, right? We dabble a little bit in emotional intelligence, right? Uh you go to a lot of these leadership courses and you hear emotional intelligence, they give you definitions, they might do a little bit of that, but we don't do enough of that, right? We we continue with traditional leadership um ideas, stuff that we were doing when the Greeks were around, the Romans were around, you know. Just think about that. Think about where our ideals come from and think about how long they've been. We talked about accountability, you know, um discipline, all that sort of stuff. Um, but we don't want to touch or we're very hesitant about touching that emotional intelligence piece because it has to do with emotions, you know, and it's not just for police officers, this is people across the board, you know. Um if you get into that world and if you start, you know, studying that and working on your self-awareness and using introspection, you know, and I define that as you know, having an in-depth conversation with yourself. I do that every day, and it really helps me um kind of put put the problem solve and also put whatever happened in that day into context and and kind of you know set up, you know, did I do the right things today? Did I um did I have a good day? Did I have a bad day? What I need to change, you know, and really just have that mind and keep me in check. Um if you put some of these things into place, you know, empathy and and really use them, you will become a better leader. You know, there's a hole in a lot of people's leadership game, and it's this world. I became a way better leader when I did this. When I started thinking about others before myself, the blessings that I received were um exponential. And uh, you know, and it came from diving into this, thinking about others before me, helping others before me, and really, you know, making sure that I understood this part of leadership, which a lot of people don't talk about. So kudos to you for having people on that that are talking about this section of leadership because it's so important. And this is the future. I'm not gonna be the only one talking about this, you know. As people work from online um more and more, you're gonna need people with these skills to be able to connect, to be able to build trust uh very quickly and you know, um accurately and strongly in order to get things done for those companies. And they're not gonna do it the old way, they're gonna have to do it this way. So um, if you want to jumpstart that portion of your leadership, might be painful for some people, but I'm telling you, you'll be a much better leader once you start getting into this side of leadership.

SPEAKER_02 32:56

Absolutely, ladies and gentlemen. So if you know someone who can benefit from this episode, a leader or something like that, uh please uh share it with them. Also follow rate review this episode. Get it out to as many people as you know. And to keep up with all things live in the dream, if you haven't already done so, please visit www.curveball337.com and share the website and the uh show to everybody that you know. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. And Dr. Camacho, thank you for all that you do. Thank you for your service, and thank you for joining me.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Thank you for having me. I really do appreciate it, Curves. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

For more information on the Living the Dream with Curveball Podcast, visit www.curveball337.com. Until next time, keep living the dream.